# Has there ever been a society in which darker skin = higher status? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466 "2009-01-22T15:42:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/41 "2009-01-23T13:10:24Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > I thought **pancakes3** was ill-informed until I read this particular piece of information that formally established his “street credentials.” Hotlanta. What’ll they think of next? The straight dope message board is the last place i would try to amass street cred. I’m just trying to make a point in that in the black culture there exists a counterculture of self segregation and ethnic pride where a premium is placed on being black. Thus lighter skinned people can and are being treated as “bad” relative to darker skinned people. The examples i’ve given are 1 - having “high” and “yellow” and “house nigger” as derogatory terms, 2 - stressing intra-race marriages, and 3 - self segregation that can be found most public in the club scene, but can also be found in any other predominantly black areas. I can see how saying hotlanta makes me sound desperate for validation that i am in fact knowledgeable of black culture but it doesn’t discredit what i’ve said. Some Black people do say “high” and yellow" in describing light skinned black people, and others are biased against blacks taking white girlfriends/wives. I was just trying to share that with the people on this board who think that it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/42 "2009-01-23T15:11:59Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by SuaSponte In the U.S., perhaps, but not elsewhere. In the Philippines, for example, darker skin due to the sun is a symbol of lower status - it means that you have to work outside. In Western countries, it was much the same until about the 1920’s - a tan meant manual labor, and thus lower class. This changed as Western countries urbanized, and the lower class started to spend their time indoors, in factories and the like. A tan then became a symbol of higher status because only those who didn’t have to work inside and/or had leisure time to spend outdoors got tans. Sua > [@mswas](#): > > RIght, I don’t believe that that’s true. Brilliantly argued. But your lack of belief is in error. Just a few Google hits: From the BBC: > [@](#): > > Go back to Victorian times and a tan was a sign of lower social status, connected with manual outdoor labour - but with the advent of mass tourism to sunnier climes, it has spent many years being associated with the ability to afford regular holidays. > **[BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Can a fake tan ever be classy?](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7461017.stm)** > > Royal Ascot is tightening up its dress code to raise standards and fake-tan lines are among the "style crimes" to come under scrutiny. Can bottled tan ever be sophisticated? Another bit: > [@](#): > > Untanned skin continued to be fashionable during Shakespearean times. This was primarily because having lighter skin was considered to be a sign of higher status. Once again, however, women were using lead based cosmetics in order to achieve their lighter appearance. In fact, according to some historians, Elizabeth I died from using so much lead on her skin. > > During the 18th and 19th centuries, fair skin that was freckle-free was considered to be attractive throughout Europe. This preference was primarily because people that performed manual labor had tans from working outdoors and on farms. Therefore, a person with light skin was considered to be a sign that a person was wealthier and able to hire someone else to do the work. For this reason, the royal court of France tended to powder their faces in order to look as white as they could. > > During the 20th century, labor began to change and more of it started to take place indoors. Slowly, tan skin started to be seen more as a sign of leisure rather than labor, as those that were wealthy were able to spend more time outdoors and having fun. This perception was further solidified in the 1920s when Coco Chanel, who was a world famous fashion designer, came back from a trip to the French Riviera with a dark tan. [abcarticledirectory.com](http://www.abcarticledirectory.com/Article/The-History-of-Sun-Tanning/136193) There are literally dozens of other similar reports. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/43 "2009-01-23T16:04:10Z")
The Bantu pastoralists / farmers of southern Africa certainly had higher status than the light-skinned Khoisan natives of the area. Any number of isolated, dark-skinned hunter-gatherer societies would fit the OP, too. “The others” are lower status, no matter their skin tone. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/44 "2009-01-23T16:31:50Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > The Bantu pastoralists / farmers of southern Africa certainly had higher status than the light-skinned Khoisan natives of the area. Any number of isolated, dark-skinned hunter-gatherer societies would fit the OP, too. “The others” are lower status, no matter their skin tone. I think you’ve nailed it in one. The Bantu expansion through central/southern Africa swept aside and relegated to lower status any number of other racial/ethnic groups, many of whom were/are lighter skinned. Sua ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/45 "2009-01-23T16:44:24Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > The Bantu pastoralists / farmers of southern Africa certainly had higher status than the light-skinned Khoisan natives of the area. Any number of isolated, dark-skinned hunter-gatherer societies would fit the OP, too. “The others” are lower status, no matter their skin tone. But at the time, that wasn’t really what I’d call a society, as such - more like 2 interacting societies. So it was intersocietal status, not intrasocietal, which is what I assume the OP was going for. Also, I’ve been told (anecdotally) that, historically, Xhosa men _preferred_ Khoekhoen wives when they could get them (we can only speculate as to why), which they presumably would not do if they were perceived as socially inferior. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/46 "2009-01-23T16:46:20Z")
**SuaSponte** You misunderstand me. I believe it was true that a tan used to be a sign of lower status. I don’t believe that today, a tan is a sign of higher status. At least not in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/47 "2009-01-23T16:47:58Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > I think you’ve nailed it in one. The Bantu expansion through central/southern Africa swept aside and relegated to lower status any number of other racial/ethnic groups, many of whom were/are lighter skinned. > > Sua Very good point, which makes me think of another set of quasi-examples. Eighteenth century (and earlier) Asian societies (especially Japan and China) considered themselves to be the pinnacle of civilization, and considered others, including lighter-skinned Europeans, to be barbarians. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/48 "2009-01-23T17:28:31Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **SuaSponte** You misunderstand me. I believe it was true that a tan used to be a sign of lower status. I don’t believe that today, a tan is a sign of higher status. At least not in the United States. OK, I agree that, in the U.S., a tan has lost its role as an indicator of social status. It does, however, retain that role in other parts of the world. I know, from personal experience, it retains that role in the Philippines. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/49 "2009-01-23T17:29:38Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > OK, I agree that, in the U.S., a tan has lost its role as an indicator of social status. > It does, however, retain that role in other parts of the world. I know, from personal experience, it retains that role in the Philippines. Just wait until they have tanning salons in their mini-malls. They’ll stop caring. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/50 "2009-01-23T17:33:18Z")
The American indians thought red was the correct color to be. They ,like any oyher society, thought they were better. They did provide arrow shirts for the whiteys though. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/51 "2009-01-23T17:38:52Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > kimstu, I believe spike404’s post may have been a woosh. [I kind of doubt it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10723021&postcount=14) ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/52 "2009-01-24T06:22:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The American indians thought red was the correct color to be. They ,like any oyher society, thought they were better. They did provide arrow shirts for the whiteys though. They must be decendants of the devil which is probably why they were killed, I mean if your skin is red without bleeding you must be related to the devil. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/53 "2009-02-02T23:32:54Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > In America, you could claim that the pale-skinned Irish immigrants weren’t well received from the 1800 to the first half of the 20th century. The term “redneck” itself is a slur against them getting easily sunburned while doing manual labour. How would one have differentiated an Irish immigrant from a British immigrant of the same period? ---
**Author:** ![Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9adbd/32.png) [@Fell\_through\_the\_Ice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fell_through_the_Ice)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/54 "2009-02-03T01:52:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Heck, that’s been made blindingly obvious just this week, with the widespread amazement and awe manifested at the fact of inaugurating a black man as President of the US. Of course, it could instead be that Obama is the first black American **qualified** to be President of the US. :rolleyes: Meh, that would be too easy. ---
**Author:** ![PCFiend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@PCFiend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PCFiend)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/55 "2009-02-03T05:03:06Z")
This is totally relative to your current surroundings, even in the US. The college I attend is overwhelmingly African-American, so as a white male, I am the outsider and treated with caution. A college is not a society, I suppose, but it could be seen as a model for a society, complete with social networks that I do not fit into and bureaucrats that like to make my life hell. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466/56 "2009-02-04T01:07:22Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > How would one have differentiated an Irish immigrant from a British immigrant of the same period? I would think primarily by appearance and accent. Despite the fact that these days we don’t pay very close attention in the US to how Irish people differ from English people appearance-wise, it seems that people did back then. Granted, it was probably easier for an Irish person to “pass” than, for example, an African-American, but I believe that people could probably pick out the Irish people reasonably often. If you’ve ever seen British and American caricatures of Irish people of the late 19th and early 20th century, you’ll probably have observed how they were perceived as different; animalistic, ape-like, by turns comical and menacing. WASPs _thought_ they could tell the difference (even if I suspect they weren’t as good at it as they imagined). Bear in mind as well that Irish people were (and of course are) culturally and religiously different from the English. The point here is that an Irish person would have to give up or hide their religion and culture in order to even have a chance of being accepted as “white like us” and not “a dirty Irishman”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-ever-been-a-society-in-which-darker-skin-higher-status/482466.md?page=2)