# Has there really never been a study comparing autism rates in vaccinated vs non-vaccinated people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400 "2010-08-25T14:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/1 "2010-08-25T14:38:25Z")
I just read [this article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-and-david-kirby/vaccine-court-autism-deba_b_169673.html) at the Huffington Post which makes this claim. > [@](#): > > Since autism is a behavioral affliction rather than a precisely defined biological injury – epidemiological studies are critical to establishing its causation. But the greatest source of epidemiological data is the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) – the government maintained medical records of hundreds of thousands of vaccinated children – which HHS has gone to great lengths to keep out of the hands of plaintiffs’ attorneys and independent scientists. Unfortunately the vaccine court has judicially anointed this corrupt concealment by consistently denying every motion by petitioners to view the VSD. The raw data collected in the VSD would undoubtedly provide the epidemiological evidence needed to understand the relationship between vaccines and autism. > > … > > Meanwhile, CDC has actively, openly and systematically suppressed and defunded epidemiological studies that might establish a causal link. CDC has ignored repeated pleadings that it fund peer reviewed studies of unvaccinated American cohorts like the Amish and home-schooled children. Is this true (particularly the last part)? It seems like a relatively simple study to do, and assuming unvaccinated kids have the same incidence of autism that vaccinated ones do, perhaps it could convince parents to vaccinate. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/2 "2010-08-25T14:52:16Z")
Recent fmri studies showed significantly different processing in autistic brains than normal. It would appear to be something physical in brain, not “behavioral”. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/3 "2010-08-25T15:00:13Z")
[I’d be _very_ reluctant to use the _Huffington Post_ as a source for science news.](http://www.scienceduck.com/2010/07/08/the-huffington-post-has-a-soft-spot-for-pseudoscience/) ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/4 "2010-08-25T15:08:46Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > [I’d be _very_ reluctant to use the _Huffington Post_ as a source for science news.](http://www.scienceduck.com/2010/07/08/the-huffington-post-has-a-soft-spot-for-pseudoscience/) True, but “science duck?”😛 ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/5 "2010-08-25T15:09:07Z")
I’m not using them as a source for science news, I just saw the article and read it, then looked for studies comparing the rates of the two populations…and can’t find one. But it seems pretty strange that such a study does not exist. So, where is it? ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/6 "2010-08-25T15:09:47Z")
> **[Suite 101 - How-tos, Inspiration and Other Ideas to Try](https://suite101.com/)** > > Suite101 helps you discover home ideas, DIY crafts, gardening, food, style inspiration, how-tos and other ideas to make your life better. Not a study, but probably the reason why there isn’t a study. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/7 "2010-08-25T15:15:46Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > [Suite 101 - How-tos, Inspiration and Other Ideas to Try](http://autism.suite101.com/article.cfm/autism_among_the_amish) > > Not a study, but probably the reason why there isn’t a study. Well, no, not really. There are lots of people who don’t vaccinate their children who aren’t Amish, and according to that article, the Amish do vaccinate–so what are the autism rates in people who have never been vaccinated? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/8 "2010-08-25T15:31:28Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > Is this true (particularly the last part)? It seems like a relatively simple study to do, and assuming unvaccinated kids have the same incidence of autism that vaccinated ones do, perhaps it could convince parents to vaccinate. The notion that autism is caused by vaccination has been [extensively studied (pdf).](http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/00_pdf/VSD_Chart_of_Autism_Studies-Updated_Aug_18_09.pdf) No link has been discovered. [Cite](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0003140). [%20AND%20Age%20at%20first%20measles-mumps-rubella%20vaccination%20in%20children%20with%20autism%20and%20school-matched%20control%20subjects%3A%20a%20population-based%20study%20in%20metropolitan%20Atlanta."]Cite.]([http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&doptcmdl=Citation&defaultField=Title%20Word&term=DeStefano](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&doptcmdl=Citation&defaultField=Title%20Word&term=DeStefano)[author) > [@](#): > > The latest study exonerating the MMR vaccine comes from Denmark, where investigators looked at the health records of every child born from 1991 through '98, more than 537,000 children. No matter how researchers analyzed the data, there was no difference in the autism rates of children who received the MMR vaccine and those who did not. > > Read more: [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003673,00.html#ixzz0xdFR9El7](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003673,00.html#ixzz0xdFR9El7) One of the difficulties is the ethical problems of denying enough children the known benefits of vaccination in order to test a theory for which there is no evidence, and against which there is considerable evidence. Unfortunately, the anti-vax folks are immune to evidence rather than measles. So it probably wouldn’t do much good. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![conway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@conway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/conway)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/9 "2010-08-25T15:32:09Z")
Why should they fund research? It’s a waste of money…a link hasn’t been identified in any previous study. [A study from 2008 concluded](http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/65/1/19?ijkey=b57f87626d38901150f961b886a20da56adb3aab): > [@](#): > > The DDS (California Department of Developmental Services ) data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The DDS data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism. I think you need institutional access but the cite is: Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2008;65(1):19-24. There are lots of these types of studies worldwide going back a decade, including reviews of the studies, reviews of the reviews, meta-analyses, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/10 "2010-08-25T15:35:06Z")
Maybe we should do a study to see whether there’s a link between autism and homeopathy. That’d be fun. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/11 "2010-08-25T15:41:08Z")
There [aren’t](http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=154) [enough](http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=939) unvaccinated children out there to run such a study. And the claims of the anti-vaccinationists would simply shift again after it was done. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/12 "2010-08-25T15:50:28Z")
[This](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139) study looked at differences in autism rates in children exposed to thimerasol in vaccines vs. children who received vaccines without thimerasol, and found that rates of pervasive developmental disorders were significnatly higher in the latter group than the former. They also found a steady decrease in rates of vaccines in children, with older cohorts having higher rates of vaccination than younger cohorts. The younger cohorts (with lower vaccination rates) had higher rates of diagnosis of pervasive developmental disorder. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/13 "2010-08-25T15:52:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Unfortunately, the anti-vax folks are immune to evidence rather than measles. So it probably wouldn’t do much good. > > Regards, > Shodan cold, but back in my EMT days we called this “a problem that would eventually solve itself” the evil little Darwinist in me says let them skip out, my kids are immunized, once a couple thousand kids die from measles, the anti vaxxer propensity should find itself burned out of the population in a few generations. Having crossed paths with this bunch a few times, they are rarely the smart cookies. It’s more like the same crowd that think you get AIDS from being homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/14 "2010-08-25T15:54:42Z")
Something is bound to go terribly wrong if millions of kids are vaccinated with the same relatively untested vaccine: > **[Pandemrix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix#Narcolepsy_Investigations_in_EU)** > > Pandemrix is an influenza vaccine for influenza pandemics, such as the 2009 flu pandemic. The vaccine was developed by GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) and patented in September 2006. > The vaccine was one of the H1N1 vaccines approved for use by the European Commission in September 2009, upon the recommendations of the European Medicines Agency (EMEA). The vaccine is only approved for use when an H1N1 influenza pandemic has been officially declared by the World Health Organization (WHO) or European Union (E... Like they’ve learned nothing in Europe > **[Thiomersal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal)** > > .mw-parser-output .ib-chembox{border-collapse:collapse;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox td,.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox th{border:1px solid #a2a9b1;width:40%}.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox td+td{width:60%} > Thiomersal (INN), or thimerosal (USAN, JAN), is an organomercury compound. It is a well-established antiseptic and antifungal agent. > The pharmaceutical corporation Eli Lilly and Company named it Merthiolate. It has been used as a preservative in vaccines, immunoglobulin preparat... ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/15 "2010-08-25T15:58:31Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > > [@Shodan](#): > > > > Unfortunately, the anti-vax folks are immune to evidence rather than measles. So it probably wouldn’t do much good. > > > > Regards, > > Shodan > > cold, but back in my EMT days we called this “a problem that would eventually solve itself” > > the evil little Darwinist in me says let them skip out, my kids are immunized, once a couple thousand kids die from measles, the anti vaxxer propensity should find itself burned out of the population in a few generations. > > Having crossed paths with this bunch a few times, they are rarely the smart cookies. It’s more like the same crowd that think you get AIDS from being homosexual. Except that vaccinations aren’t perfect; some number of kids who get vaccinated are still going to be susceptible to measles or polio. This is OK in a good system where everybody gets vaccinated, because almost nobody gets exposed, as an enough people are resistant so that an epidemic can’t get going. But if there’s a bunch of non-vaccinated pepple, you can get an epidemic, exposing lots of people. In other words, even though your child has been vaccinated, they might end up getting measles when the anti-vaccinators-caused epidemic happens. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/16 "2010-08-25T16:00:34Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Maybe we should do a study to see whether there’s a link between autism and homeopathy. That’d be fun. I’m sure the data would be highly attenuated when they were done. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/17 "2010-08-25T16:13:20Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > > [@drachillix](#): > > > > cold, but back in my EMT days we called this “a problem that would eventually solve itself” > > > > the evil little Darwinist in me says let them skip out, my kids are immunized, once a couple thousand kids die from measles, the anti vaxxer propensity should find itself burned out of the population in a few generations. > > > > Having crossed paths with this bunch a few times, they are rarely the smart cookies. It’s more like the same crowd that think you get AIDS from being homosexual. > > Except that vaccinations aren’t perfect; some number of kids who get vaccinated are still going to be susceptible to measles or polio. This is OK in a good system where everybody gets vaccinated, because almost nobody gets exposed, as an enough people are resistant so that an epidemic can’t get going. But if there’s a bunch of non-vaccinated pepple, you can get an epidemic, exposing lots of people. > > In other words, even though your child has been vaccinated, they might end up getting measles when the anti-vaccinators-caused epidemic happens. ☹ Also some people can’t be vaccinated - little babies, and people with immune problems. So the measles epidemic would kill some innocent people. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/18 "2010-08-25T16:35:11Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > > [@Derleth](#): > > > > [I’d be _very_ reluctant to use the _Huffington Post_ as a source for science news.](http://www.scienceduck.com/2010/07/08/the-huffington-post-has-a-soft-spot-for-pseudoscience/) > > True, but “science duck?”😛 Hey, I linked to the _nice_ skeptical takedown. 😉 [PZ Myers wants them to curl up and die](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/08/curl_up_and_die_already_huffpo.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+scienceblogs%2Fpharyngula+%28Pharyngula%29) and he’s said [other](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/07/huffpo_adds_cowardice_to_their.php) [mean](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/07/huffpo_creationist_nazis_mix_t.php) [things](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/04/huffpo_flops_again.php) about them as well. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/19 "2010-08-25T16:45:47Z")
> [@komolono](#): > > Something is bound to go terribly wrong if millions of kids are vaccinated with the same relatively untested vaccine: > > [link to article claiming H1N1 vaccine causes narcolepsy…by claiming a number among vaccinated children that’s well under 10% of the rate among unvaccinated children] I wouldn’t use Wikipedia as my primary source for science information, either. > [@komolono](#): > > Like they’ve learned nothing in Europe > > [link to general scare tactics article on Thimerosal and that it’s still being used in Europe] Or maybe they _have_ learned from the numerous studies that showed that it does not increase autism, but does dramatically improve vaccine safety (in it’s role as preservative). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/20 "2010-08-25T17:03:15Z")
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