# Has there really never been a study comparing autism rates in vaccinated vs non-vaccinated people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400 "2010-08-25T14:38:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/61 "2010-08-27T19:58:29Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > > \ > > _A Shot in the Dark_ was co-written by Barbara Loe Fisher. Ms. Fisher’s website is full of bad information. Her organization actively lobbies against vaccines and provides misleading information on vaccine side effects to the public. I wouldn’t trust anything she writes. > > > > Vaccines are not (and never will be) risk free despite Ms. Fisher’s demands. > > I think at this point vaccines and their effects are as close to a known thing in medicine as we’re likely to get (and yup, still not 100% effective or 100% safe - neither is walking out your front door). That’s almost what drives me nuttiest about the anti-vax movement. They keep pretending that there are HUGE, GIANT, ENORMOUS risks to vaccination. Worse that there are no risks to non-vaccination. The constant mantra is that you can’t take back a vaccine. Well you can’t take back broken ribs from whooping cough, brain damage from measles or sterility from mumps either. Every single thing you do has a risk. They make it sound as if the only thing that has any risk at all is a vaccine. The biggest risk from a vaccine really isn’t a side effect. The biggest risk is that the vaccine won’t work and you’ll get sick anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/62 "2010-08-28T04:58:44Z")
**komolono** ’s post has to do with a type of H1N1 flu vaccine used in the European Union (Pandemrix), which Finland suspended use of to investigate a possible link between narcolepsy (a sleep disorder) in children and the vaccine. The [press release](http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=22930) announcing this stated that the number of cases of narcolepsy officially reported (six) is in line with the normal incidence of narcolepsy, though there may be additional cases not yet reported. What is being looked at is whether the narcolepsy cases are coincidental (manifesting around the time the vaccine was given but unrelated) or somehow a side effect of flu vaccine not previously seen. None of this has anything to do with autism. Other numbers: About 30 million people have received this vaccine in Europe. Laboratory-confirmed H1N1 deaths in the EU: 3,000. Percentage of antivaxers hearing about the Pandemrix story who will be flogging it as proof of vaccine evil: 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/63 "2010-08-28T17:19:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Penn and Teller’s take.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aky-sRri-NQ) Two parter, recent “Bullshit” episode, watch to the end. That was very good - [here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJuf6G5P2_s&feature=related) Penn discussing this Bullshit episode. I’m not entirely sure, but I think he thinks the former doctor Andrew Wakefield is an asshole. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/64 "2010-08-28T17:35:05Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > > > … Andrew Wakefield’s far shoddier research. > > “Research”? To associate that word with the fiction that he created as a paid consultant does the word a significant disservice, even when coupled with the modifier. Faking data cannot count as even shoddy research. “Manslaughter”, that word I can accept. Indeed, it is now almost obligatory to point at this fact based comic: _The Facts In The Case Of Dr. Andrew Wakefield_ > **[The Facts In The Case Of Dr. Andrew Wakefield](https://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html)** > > A fifteen page story about the MMR vaccination controversy. As ever, I'm sure a few spelling errors have slipped past me. Feel free to point any out so I can correct them. The reference links for the strip are in the next blog entry. Now! Let's have... The Dr. IMHO should had been sent to jail after the evidence that was found against him. > [@](#): > > Where science is concerned journalists like Brian Deer are rare. > > Instead we have poor and biased science reporting for sensation hungry newspapers. > > Who spread ill informed opinions like they were solid gold truths. > > In the 21st century, it is too much to ask journalists to do basic fact checking? ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/65 "2011-01-27T17:01:52Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The url [press release](http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=22930) announcing this stated that the number of cases of narcolepsy officially reported (six) is in line with the normal incidence of narcolepsy, though there may be additional cases not yet reported. A brief update on Pandemrix: > **[Il Pensiero Scientifico Editore – Libri e riviste di sanità, medicina e salute](https://pensiero.it/)** > [@](#): > > According to THL’s (Finnish National Institute for Health and Welfare) Vaccine Department’s head, Dr. Terhi Kilpi, the Pandemrix vaccine alone did not cause narcolepsy in Finnish children. > > According to Dr Kilpi, the most probable explanation for increase in children’s narcolepsy in Finland is that narcolepsy was triggered by the Pandemrix vaccine together with something else. Dr Kilpi says that ongoing investigations aim to find out whether the other factor is genes, H1N1 virus, some other virus or something else. Next Tuesday there will be an official announcement on behalf of THL, but it is now known that 54 children have gotten narcolepsy after having their Pandemrix vaccine in six months - on average about three cases of the illness are diagnosed in Finland annually. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/66 "2011-01-27T17:16:06Z")
I think we need a vaccination to increase resistance to the Huffington Post. Maybe a trivalent one, and include FoxNews, and Rush Limbaugh. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/67 "2011-01-27T17:28:17Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > I think we need a vaccination to increase resistance to the Huffington Post. Maybe a trivalent one, and include FoxNews, and Rush Limbaugh. > > Tris Not the whole website, just their “Health” section. (Oh, the irony!) ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/68 "2011-01-27T17:50:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The authors of the HuffPo article are RFK Jr. (known for a revoltingly biased and misleading article that kicked off a round of vaccine scaremongering in 2005)… Both _Rolling Stone_ and _Salon_ have retracted the Kennedy article, _Salon_ in a public move citing fraud, flaws and factual errors in the information presented. \*Rolling Stone \* didn’t publicly announce the retraction but they’ve deleted the article from their archives. The article is still up on Kennedy’s website, with the flawed and incorrect information still included. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/69 "2011-01-27T20:12:11Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think that’s one of the hallmarks of junk science - giving the opinions of someone like Jenny McCarthy a comparable weight to hundreds of thousands of actual scientists, doctors, and researchers. Yes, there is a con side to this debate, but Jenny McCarthy isn’t it. And if no legitimate researchers and doctors are willing to take the con position, maybe there’s a good reason for that. But don’t forget that Jenny cured her son of autism with her mommy instinct! :rolleyes: (Or else that the anti-epileptic medications he started taking controlled his symptoms and seizures that were caused by Landau-Kleffner syndrome). I should Pit her. [Her current story about her son getting autism from the MMR vaccine is](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2010/05/frontline-vaccines-jenny-mccarthy-boom-the-souls-gone-from-his-eyes.html) “ maybe a couple of months, a month or so after the MMR, I started to notice some physical ailments . . .” Going along with that \*post hoc ergo propter hoc \*reasoning, my high school gave me epilepsy. Just months after I started at my high school I had a seizure and was diagnosed! There are 3 basic truths in this discussion: 1. There is no vaccine (or any medication, medical procedure, etc) that will ever be 100% safe for 100% of the population. 2. Vaccines are not causing autism 3. You will never be able to convince a conspiracy theorist they are wrong. Even if they ask for proof and you provide it, they will find a reason to dismiss it and then ask for more. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/70 "2011-01-27T21:34:06Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > I should Pit her. No need. There are extensive Pit threads and other fora threads about this particular “debate” and that vapid bobble-headed anti-vaxxer. A search should give you HOURS of entertainment. Or frustration. Take your pick, we got it. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/71 "2011-01-27T22:14:36Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > that vapid bobble-headed anti-vaxxer. I love that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/72 "2011-01-28T04:17:04Z")
> [@GiantRat](#): > > There’s also some concern (or at least was - my info is probably outdated, since it’s anecdotal) about the DPT vaccine. The “P” for pertussis was a problem for some kids. My middle one got a bad reaction from his first DPT shot, and got only a DT booster later on. However, by the time of his next booster, they gave him the new pertussis vaccine without any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/73 "2011-01-28T14:10:01Z")
My family doctor says that he considers failure to vaccinate as a form of child abuse. My daughter-in-law, a family physician has considered refusing to take families with unvaccinated children as patients. Wait till we see outbreaks of paralytic polio. ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/74 "2011-02-01T11:29:38Z")
[http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1346563/pg1](http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1346563/pg1) [QUOTE=Finnish officials now apologizing] the governmental department responsible for hasty ordering of untested Pandemrix vaccine, has now been forced to issue apology and statement, that the cases of Narcolepsy increased atleast tenfold on the children and youth vaccinated. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/75 "2011-02-01T11:45:21Z")
> [@komolono](#): > > [http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1346563/pg1](http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1346563/pg1) Enclosed a wrong link, but I’ll try to find the official cite later on. Mods may remove the last two posts. ---
**Author:** ![komolono](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/komolono/32/532_2.png) [@komolono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/komolono)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400/76 "2011-02-01T11:55:51Z")
[http://www.thl.fi/en\_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=24103](http://www.thl.fi/en_US/web/en/pressrelease?id=24103) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-there-really-never-been-a-study-comparing-autism-rates-in-vaccinated-vs-non-vaccinated-people/551400.md?page=3)