# Hasidic cults like Kiryas Joel, how common is it for the kids to get free from them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959 "2009-12-12T04:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/1 "2009-12-12T04:11:45Z")
They are as bad as FLDS, except without the bigamy. Most of the FLDS folks stay in (if they aren’t kicked out for being guys competing for the young girls, that is), but I would imagine that at least a few of the folks in these groups manage to break free and live in normal society. I just wonder how much a grip they have over their kids. And a related question, they seem to be breeding up a storm, and the neighbors are organizing to keep them from claiming more territory. How are they going to have room take care of everybody in a couple of generations? Well they eventually build highrise apartments with their welfare checks? It seems like what they are doing is unsustainable in the long run, and of course the rest of us are paying for it with our tax dollars. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/2 "2009-12-12T04:25:14Z")
Kiryas Joel isn’t a cult. It’s a village in the town of Monroe that’s almost entirely occupied by Satmar Hasidim. And I’m not particularly fond of the Hasidim as a group, or the Satmar in particular, but they’re not a cult, either. Also, it figures you would start this thread on a Friday night. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/3 "2009-12-12T04:57:01Z")
Not a cult? Surely you jest. Lets see, how many of these characteristics of a cult they meet: > [@](#): > > The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. Check. > [@](#): > > Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Check. > [@](#): > > Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). Ecstatic prayer anyone? Check. > [@](#): > > The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). Checkaroonie. > [@](#): > > The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). Check. > [@](#): > > The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. They are in constant conflict with neighbors. Check. > [@](#): > > The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). They could give a hoot about even mundane things like building codes. Check. > [@](#): > > The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. Check. > [@](#): > > Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Women: You must give up your job after you have a child! Check. > [@](#): > > The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. Even if only by breeding. Check. > [@](#): > > The group is preoccupied with making money. Or getting it from the rest of us by going on the dole. Check. > [@](#): > > Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. Check. > [@](#): > > Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. Ultra Check. > [@](#): > > The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. Check. This is a flat-out cult. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/4 "2009-12-12T05:30:21Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > This is a flat-out cult. Except that every single thing you just said could be equally applied to the Roman Catholic Church or Tibetan Buddhism. Which either means that it’s a useless checklist, or else every organised religion is a flat out cult. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/5 "2009-12-12T05:37:20Z")
Where did you find your checklist, and how does it measure in terms of degree? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/6 "2009-12-12T05:56:22Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Except that every single thing you just said could be equally applied to the Roman Catholic Church or Tibetan Buddhism. Which either means that it’s a useless checklist, or else every organised religion is a flat out cult. The Catholic Church does NOT say that women can’t work, or tell them what to wear. (Hello, most of the teachers at Catholic schools are women!) Can you give me a cite for this? As for OP, he doesn’t offer any links, so I can’t comment. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/7 "2009-12-12T05:57:54Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Except that every single thing you just said could be equally applied to the Roman Catholic Church or Tibetan Buddhism. Which either means that it’s a useless checklist, or else every organised religion is a flat out cult. I wouldn’t disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/8 "2009-12-12T06:00:25Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Except that every single thing you just said could be equally applied to the Roman Catholic Church or Tibetan Buddhism. Which either means that it’s a useless checklist, or else every organised religion is a flat out cult. I’m an ex-Catholic and am pretty sure that many of the items on that checklist do _not_ apply to the Roman Catholic church. For example, members are not required to cut ties with family/friends. There is no chanting, speaking in tongues, lengthy meditation sessions, etc. You are not required to live only with other Catholics. In fact, I would say that most of the items on the list do not apply to Catholicism or to many other organized religions. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/9 "2009-12-12T06:11:12Z")
I have been reading about them on Wikipedia. I simply do not see evidence that they practice mind control, force people to sever ties, or any other “cult like” behavior. The place merely seems like an area with a high concentration of religious people all born into the same religion. > [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > And a related question, they seem to be breeding up a storm, and the neighbors are organizing to keep them from claiming more territory. If this language was used here about any **racial** minority, it would catch more flak than a B-17 flying over Berlin. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/10 "2009-12-12T06:48:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The Catholic Church does NOT say that women can’t work, or tell them what to wear. That’s nice, or something. But since that isn’t the wording on the list I have no idea what point you are making. The RC leadership certainly does demand that members get permission to marry, to divorce, it tells them what birth control they can use, it tells them who they can have sex with and how. It effectively tells them that married couples must have children, it tells them how to discipline their children. There’s no way that you can pretend that the RC leadership doesn’t dictate how members should think, act, and feel just because it doesn’t stipulate a dress code. > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > There is no chanting, speaking in tongues, lengthy meditation sessions, etc. No chanting or lengthy meditation in Roman Catholicism? Are you joking? > [@](#): > > The praying of the Rosary is traditionally dedicated to one of three sets of “Mysteries” to be said in sequence, one per day: the Joyful (sometimes Joyous) Mysteries; the Sorrowful Mysteries; and the Glorious Mysteries. Each of these three sets of Mysteries has within it five different themes to be \*\*meditated \*\* on, one for each decade of ten Hail Marys. Pope John Paul II, in his apostolic letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae (October 2002), recommended an additional set called the Luminous Mysteries (or the “Mysteries of Light”).[27] Catholic faithful who prefer the original 15 mysteries point to the belief that the Rosary is Mary’s Psalter, containing 150 Hail Marys in its body for the 150 Psalms.[31] The Luminous Mysteries make the total 200, but incorporate Christ’s ministry. Various other “mysteries” exist; in the German-speaking countries a fifth set of mysteries has been popular since the 1920s, the so-called “Comforting Mysteries”, which have an eschatological dimension, \*\*meditating \*\*Christ as Universal King.[[3]] > **[Rosary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosary)** > > The Rosary (/ˈroʊzəri/; Latin: rosarium, in the sense of "crown of roses" or "garland of roses"), formally known as the Psalter of Jesus and Mary (Latin: Psalterium Jesu et Mariae), also known as the Dominican Rosary (as distinct from other forms of rosary such as the Franciscan Crown, Bridgettine Rosary, Rosary of the Holy Wounds, etc.), refers to a set of prayers used primarily in the Catholic Church, and to the physical string of knots or beads used to count the component pra The prayers tha... > [@](#): > > The revival of religious life about the middle of the nineteenth century gave the impetus for a renewed cultivation of plain chant. The extended use and perfected rendering of plain chant, so ardently desired by Pope Pius X, will in its turn not only raise the level of religious music, and enhance the dignity of Divine worship, but also intensify the spiritual life of the Christian community. > **[CNP Articles - Twelve Latin Chants Every Catholic Should Know (Part 1)](http://www.canticanova.com/articles/hymns/art2e1.htm)** I’ll grant you the bit about not living with outsiders. So by the standards of this list the RC church is just as much a cult as Scientology. The list is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/11 "2009-12-12T06:49:14Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > There is no chanting, speaking in tongues, lengthy meditation sessions, etc. Right. There’s no [chanting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant) in Catholicism, at all. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/12 "2009-12-12T07:06:21Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I have been reading about them on Wikipedia. I simply do not see evidence that they practice mind control, force people to sever ties, or any other “cult like” behavior. The place merely seems like an area with a high concentration of religious people all born into the same religion. Wikipedia doesn’t tell the whole story. > [@](#): > > If this language was used here about any **racial** minority, it would catch more flak than a B-17 flying over Berlin. Just a statement of fact. They have the lowest average age of any community in the United States, due to their high reproductive rates. They are also in a very limited area, and the surrounding communities don’t want them to expand. It seems as though they haven’t thought their cunning plan all the way through. Perhaps they will establish a satellite at some point. Anyway, my question still stands: Do any of the young people brought up in this cult ever escape? At least the Amish have the tradition of Rumspring. These folks seem like it’s once you are legal it’s time to get married and get knocked up to start the breeding program. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/13 "2009-12-12T14:54:13Z")
Yeah, I’ll give you the chanting thing. I suppose I was thinking of chanting in tongues or whatnot. I still maintain that many of the list items do not apply to Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/14 "2009-12-12T16:40:32Z")
Given the loaded nature of the OP, this is more appropriate for GD than GQ. Colibri General Questions ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/15 "2009-12-12T17:03:07Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Wikipedia doesn’t tell the whole story. So where _do_ we get the whole story? Where are your cites? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/16 "2009-12-12T18:05:11Z")
To answer your question without editorializing, there are obviously former Hasidim around, and more specifically, former Satmar Hasidim, although, like with most religions, most people follow their parents. ---
**Author:** ![mil0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mil0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mil0)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/17 "2009-12-12T18:31:44Z")
When I went to Temple Beth El as a young lad in Spring Valley, New York and there were a number of formerly-Hasidic families who for whatever reason became reform Jews. It’s probably not as common as say, a fundamental christian losing their faith for a number of reasons, but it does happen. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/18 "2009-12-12T18:38:52Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Yeah, I’ll give you the chanting thing. I suppose I was thinking of chanting in tongues or whatnot. I still maintain that many of the list items do not apply to Catholicism. While it’s not as common as it once was (except that it is growing in Hispanic Catholic circles), you are aware of the Catholic Charismatic movement, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/19 "2009-12-12T18:53:15Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > While it’s not as common as it once was (except that it is growing in Hispanic Catholic circles), you are aware of the Catholic Charismatic movement, aren’t you? I consider the Charismatics to be their own thing and not representative of Catholicism as a whole. On a side note, I sort of can’t believe I’m actually mounting a defense of Catholicism in this thread. 😛 I suppose it’s because I think that if Catholicism were actually a cult as described by the parameters in the OP, I’d have been completely ostracized and cut off from my family when I decided to quit going to Mass, and instead everyone was pretty “meh” about it. I get the occasional stealth copy of Catholic Digest magazine mailed to my house from my mom, but that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/20 "2009-12-12T20:12:37Z")
The situation in Kiryas Joel (and also New Square, NY, to a lesser extent) is not really analogous to Catholicism thusly: if a teenaged kid in a Catholic family decides that they’re just not going to go to Mass anymore, the deacons and the parish priest don’t descend on his household, try to force him into compliance and encourage his family to kick him out and banish him from the home without regard to where he’ll end up if he refuses. The Catholic Church also encourages higher education, research and knowledge, running colleges all over the country, where 41% of Kiryas Joel residents, born and raised in the U.S. don’t even speak English, because they’re never taught it at home nor in the Kiryas Joel _schools_ where classes are conducted in Yiddish. The Catholic Church also doesn’t insist that families expand themselves beyond their point to financially subsist without outside assistance. 2/3 of Kiryas Joel families are below the federal poverty line and more than 40% are on food stamps as a _direct result_ of community edicts to marry young, shun _any_ family planning (including contraceptives _and_ the NFP acceptable to the Catholic church) and to become single income households once children begin to arrive. Nor does the Catholic Church run any enclaves where the bishop or archbishop has to approve candidates for town offices, with uncharacteristically dense housing, running the _public_ school (at least in the U.S.) And when a bishop hands down a ruling that women shouldn’t drive cars and that the public buses of the enclave should be gender-segregated, brace yourselves for the firestorm of the century, and rightly so. Kiryas Joel calls itself a Hasidic oasis, but it’s really a modern day shtetl. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959.md?page=2)