# Hasidic cults like Kiryas Joel, how common is it for the kids to get free from them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959 "2009-12-12T04:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/21 "2009-12-12T21:59:00Z")
I’m with **MsWhatsit**. When you leave the Catholic church, you’re basically allowed to leave, you’re not followed by the Swiss Guards, and you’re not shunned by your Catholic family and friends. Nor are you forbidden from hanging out with non-Catholics. (Besides, a hell of a lot of Catholics don’t follow the no birth control thing – at least my parents didn’t.) Plus Catholic chants can actually be really beautiful, music-wise. ---
**Author:** ![phi2dao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6de8d8/32.png) [@phi2dao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phi2dao)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/22 "2009-12-12T22:40:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m with **MsWhatsit**. When you leave the Catholic church, you’re basically allowed to leave, you’re not followed by the Swiss Guards, and you’re not shunned by your Catholic family and friends. Nor are you forbidden from hanging out with non-Catholics. > > (Besides, a hell of a lot of Catholics don’t follow the no birth control thing – at least my parents didn’t.) > > Plus Catholic chants can actually be really beautiful, music-wise. I don’t disagree with you at all, but I feel that I must point out that a cult can have beautiful music also; and that having beautiful music doesn’t make you not a cult. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/23 "2009-12-12T22:44:44Z")
I agree, I was just putting that in as an asside. 😉 As for the OP, we’re still waiting for those cites. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/24 "2009-12-12T22:47:21Z")
Whenever I hear the words “Kiryas Joel”, I think “Curious George”. This will be my sole contribution to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/25 "2009-12-13T03:32:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m with **MsWhatsit**. When you leave the Catholic church, you’re basically allowed to leave, you’re not followed by the Swiss Guards, and you’re not shunned by your Catholic family and friends. Once again my response is “So what?”. None of that is one the list. The point being that the list is every bit as applicable to the Catholic Church as it is to Scientology. It’s every bit as applicable to Tibetan Buddhism as it is to Kiryas Joel. As such the list is worthless. Either all organised religions are cults, or there are no cults. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/26 "2009-12-13T03:36:00Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Once again my response is “So what?”. None of that is one the list. Yes, it is. > [@](#): > > Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. > > Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Not true of Catholicism. I would assert that many of the other items on the list are inapplicable to Catholicism (and many other organized religions as well), but you could get into nitpicky semantic debates about them, and I don’t have the time or energy so I’m not going to bother. I think that the two items I quoted here are undeniably false when applied to Catholicism, however. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/27 "2009-12-13T04:05:40Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Yes, it is. If you think so then quote where the list mentions shinning after a member leaves. I look forward to seeing this quote. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/28 "2009-12-13T04:42:23Z")
Not on the list, agreed. Other things on the list are not applicable to the Catholic church or to other major organized religions. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/29 "2009-12-13T05:49:51Z")
From the outside, they all look like cults. It’s just a matter of degree. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/30 "2009-12-13T07:35:04Z")
Yes, the Satmers are a cult, by any definition of the word. And yes, there are those who manage to get out of it, although I can’t tell you how many. There are organizations in Israel that help them and refugees from other Haredi cults adjust to secular society; help they most definitely need. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/31 "2009-12-13T08:44:26Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Not on the list, agreed. Other things on the list are not applicable to the Catholic church or to other major organized religions. Aside from the “not living with outsiders” thing, what item on that list doesn’t apply just as well to Roman Catholicism as to Kiryas Joel? > [@](#): > > The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its infallible Pope and its dead demi-god leaders and regard their belief systems, ideologies, and practices as the Truth, as law. > [@](#): > > Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Definite check. If you express doubt in something as silly as transsubtantiation you can’t even take communion, and thus are doomed to helllllll. > [@](#): > > Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). Covered this already. > [@](#): > > The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). Covered this already. > [@](#): > > The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the “Christ” is considered the Messiah, while the “Holy Father” is considered to be in a direct line from the chief saint a special being, and infallible to boot. Both the “Christ” and the “Holy Father” are on a special mission to save humanity). > [@](#): > > The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. 2000 years of some of the bloodiest conflicts in hostory in fact. > [@](#): > > Both the"Christ" and the “Holy Father” are not accountable to any authorities > [@](#): > > Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Hell yeah. Try being a homosexual or a pornography producer and continue your lifestyle after becoming a Roman Catholic. > [@](#): > > The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. This in spades. By all accounts Catholic guilt is second only to Jewish guilt. > [@](#): > > The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. Oh yeah, to the point of forcing conversions of both individuals and entire nations at gunpoint or via torture. > [@](#): > > The group is preoccupied with making money. Oh yeah. > [@](#): > > Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. Yep. > [@](#): > > The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. Yep, to the point of believing that if they leave they are cut off from God and doomed to an eternity of suffering. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/32 "2009-12-13T15:23:08Z")
Disagree with “cut ties to family and friends” and “live/socialize only with other cult members,” as stated previously. In my home church, there were two openly gay men that regularly attended Mass, and while in general the rest of the church members did not exactly approve of their lifestyle, nobody barred them from entering, stopped them from taking Communion, etc. Many churches take a “hate the sin, love the sinner” approach. While I find this personally repugnant and it is one of the reasons I abandoned Catholicism, I have to admit that is not anything like forcing people to cut ties to gay friends, or forcing them to kick them out of their homes. PS: This whole “Is Catholicism a cult?” thing is a giant hijack and I do not wish to continue it. I’ve made my point a couple of times and since I am now at the stage where I am just repeating myself, I don’t see any point in continuing. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/33 "2009-12-13T21:31:12Z")
[Papal Infailibility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility) It does not mean what you seem to think it means, **Blake**. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/34 "2009-12-14T12:56:11Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > … > every organised religion is a flat out cult. Check. ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/35 "2009-12-14T16:59:53Z")
Actually, all these “Cult Check Lists” are usually subjective hokum. I was struck by how much this list resembles getting heavily involved in a political party or campaign. - The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. Yes, to the point of plastering his or her name on bumper stickers, t-shirts, yard signs, etc. -Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. Yep, try to go to a political convention and take a contrary position to the consensus. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). “Four More Years” “Four More Years” -The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). OK,a little weak on this one, I admit. But when I was canvassing, I had a script and a required uniform. “Go clean for gene.” -The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). To many examples on both sides. Look at “Obama Girl” or the long lines at Sarah Palin book signings. -The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. Oh, in spades. Both sides. -The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). OK, you got me there, though some politicians try getting away with being above the law, with help of some die hard supporters. -The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. Yep - all the phone calls I made to get people out to the polls, and the subtle suggestions that I could do more. -Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. Not really, except I was encouraged to spend less time with family to canvass. -The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. Probably the biggest goal. -The group is preoccupied with making money. Unless this is the biggest goal. -Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. Oh, yeah -Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. OK, no. -The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. I ran into plenty of “True Believers” like this from both sides of the aisle. The same analysis could be used about my job, about my family, etc. “Cult” is mostly an adjective that means “A [religious] group the speaker doesn’t like.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/36 "2009-12-14T18:47:55Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Right. There’s no [chanting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant) in Catholicism, at all. I was a Catholic for many years and never chanted, a fact for which everyone in hearing distance was no doubt grateful. I do consider all religions cults, though. There are more damaging and less damaging ones, but they are matters of degree, not of kind. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/37 "2009-12-15T03:16:36Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Yeah, I’ll give you the chanting thing. I suppose I was thinking of chanting in tongues or whatnot. I still maintain that many of the list items do not apply to Catholicism. Maybe not strictly, for the average Catholic laity,perse, but if you join an Order/Cloister/Monastery all of those cultic practices apply. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/38 "2009-12-15T03:50:03Z")
At least once they join the order, they’ve escaped from the Rest-of-Secular-Society Cult. ---
**Author:** ![Fat\_Chance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8baadc/32.png) [@Fat\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fat_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/39 "2009-12-15T18:53:47Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > And a related question, they seem to be breeding up a storm, and the neighbors are organizing to keep them from claiming more territory. How are they going to have room take care of everybody in a couple of generations? Well they eventually build highrise apartments with their welfare checks? It seems like what they are doing is unsustainable in the long run, and of course the rest of us are paying for it with our tax dollars. :rolleyes: This a major issue - and I speak as one who grew up in Monroe, moved away and now live back near Kiryas Joel again. Once wooded rolling hills are covered in concrete 4-5 story apartment houses, that are being built as fast as possible. They buy up all the land around, especially old farms and large tracts, and have attempted to annex other village and town property into thier own village. They’ve used proxy buyers to purchase land that people ddidn’t want to sell them. And on the other side, the towns and villages have been fighting, changing zoning laws, suing them based on water and sewage usage, etc. Its a constant battle, and I do wonder what will happen once they truly start to run out of space. I think it will be a while before that happens, as they still have a large amount of undeveloped land, even as fast as they are building. Either, the surrounding towns will block thier advance, and they will have to establish other communities in other places, or the folks living in the surrounding towns will flee the dropping property values and overcrowding, and allow the Hasidics to take over thier land as they flee. Should be an interesting next 20 years or so in this area. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959/40 "2009-12-15T20:52:39Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > At least once they join the order, they’ve escaped from the Rest-of-Secular-Society Cult. Depends on the order. Cloistered groups are only a subset of all religious orders. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hasidic-cults-like-kiryas-joel-how-common-is-it-for-the-kids-to-get-free-from-them/520959.md?page=3)