Hastert sentenced to 15 months - fair?

Good point. The crazy thing about many legal issues, though, is that something can be admissible/relevant for some purposes, but not others.

I don’t really feel that strongly about this case, but I think a judge has to be very careful about basing their decision on anything other than the specific matters relevant to the issue/dispute before him or her. Actually, I think the fact that he received ANY prison time is sufficient. Would have been disappointed if he was give probation or house arrest due to his age or other factors.

Yes, judges do enjoy considerable (but not unlimited) discretion. Will be interesting to see what is held on appeal. This was in NDIL, so any appeal will go directly to the 7th Cir. We’ll see if Posner wrangles himself a spot on that panel as he often seems to do on high profile cases (I’m not at all a fan!)

This argument is so full of strawmen that I feel compelled to use it as kindling. I mean, WHAT?! You think that I put the races in to perpetuate the “narrative” of how unfair the legal system is to African Americans? Are you serious? The fact that you think that says a whole lot more about you than it does me. And what did I say that made you think I was making the clerk out to be an “evil capitalist?” And if I was trying to make the black girl a “delicate flower” (again, how?) wouldn’t I have mentioned that she was only 15 at the time? I didn’t because that’s not what I was trying to do.

Also, what in the hell do self-hating Asians have to do with anything? Have you not only been able to surmise my intent in including the races (which is asinine and wrong) and my race (which is also, you got it, asinine and wrong)? The case was complex, such as the fact that the gun had been unknowingly altered to have a hairpin trigger. I didn’t bring up the specific facts because this thread isn’t about the case. It can be argued that the shooting or the judge’s ruling was justified, but again, that’s not the topic of this thread. Rather, I was using it to demonstrate the degree of power judges have in sentencing. Really, all this because I said “Korean woman.”

Also, I’d really love a cite to this “phenomenon” of self-hating Asians using the case and never mentioning Asians being killed by other minorities. Hell, you thought the story was made up just a few hours ago. Now it’s a phenomenon? Well, I gave you a cite for my assertion, can you give me one for yours?

One more thing, where did I ever suggest that the murder was cold-blooded? The fact that I mentioned the jury convicted her of voluntary manslaughter should give you a clue that it wasn’t cold blooded murder, right?

P.S. Yes, Latasha struck the “Korean woman” (sarcasm Hmm. Why did you have to mention she was Korean? Hell, you used it three times more than I did in my original post! Have you been reading a racist textbook or something?) after the clerk forcibly dragged her by the sweater, thereby initiating first contact. Neither I nor the other poster stated or even implied that Latasha striking Soon three times (by the way, how do you Latasha’s punches were vicious? Were you there? Have you seen videotape?) was okay. You inferred that all by yourself. Somehow. Although one could argue that being hit three times pales in comparison to being shot in the head (there weren’t “shots” fired, there was just one). Furthermore, your assertion that Soon was scared that Latasha was getting her friends has no basis in the factual record (and, by the way, still wouldn’t legally justify the shooting. It fails at least two requirements for a self-defense claim, possibly even all four).

But, as I stated above, I didn’t explain the minutiae of the case because my only point was that judges have large discretionary authority when it comes to sentencing. And that’s something this case clearly demonstrates. I wasn’t trying to be some self-hating Asian (WTF?) who was trying to pit a “capitalist pig” against a “delicate flower” (again, WTF?).

But thanks for derailing the thread by making absurd accusations, forcing words in my mouth, and claiming ludicrous motives for my post.

This appears to have been misreported by some sources. What Hastert is actually required to do is register for sex offender treatment based on his admitted transgressions, but he can’t be legally required to register as an offender because he wasn’t convicted. Cite.

It’s an arbitrary cutoff that deems that after some period of time the probability of a fair trial becomes unacceptably low. One may ask how come the trial is deemed viable one day short of the statute of limitations and not viable one day after, but such is the nature of laws and regulations that have to draw a bright line.

Gotta say, have there EVER been 2 more appropriate names for the 2 posters involved in this little disagreement? :smiley:

Probably not. But, if you could point to the posts where I was being ignorant, please point them out. Sincerely. If I’m being ignorant about something, I want to know how so that I can learn.

Stay tuned for the next round of Arrogantly Ignorant vs. Pearl Clutching Provocateur, discussing something or other that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. We are standing by and will be providing full coverage right here as it happens! :smiley:

It was never my attention to hijack this thread, but it seems I have done so nonetheless by responding to Pearl Clutching Provocateur’s post. Sorry to the OP and I swear I will not post in this thread (even if Pearl Clutching Provocateur replies to mine) unless it’s directly related to this thread’s topic.

:rolleyes: Dude.

Decaf.

Chamomile decaf. With honey and warm milk. And maybe a couple mg of prescription sedative along with it.
To recap, Arrogantly Ignorant originally mentioned the Latasha Harlins case merely as an illustration of judge’s authority in sentencing, in the context of the Hastert case:

The inclusion of the vaguely-remembered details about individuals in the case was obviously just an off-the-cuff way of indicating which notorious case it was that the poster was talking about.

Nothing in the substantive discussion in this thread has anything whatsoever to do with race and the legal system, or blacks or Asians in any capacity. It’s an absurdly illogical overreaction to imagine that the passing reference to the Harlins case, specifically in the context of judicial power in sentencing, was trying to make any point about those irrelevant issues.

I’m going to ignore this ridiculous hijack henceforth and hope you’ve managed to calm down enough to be embarrassed about it.

Sorry guys, I just found the juxtaposition of the 2 user names amusing in the context of this dispute. Nothing more. Please carry on.

Some stone cold idiots want to change the name of Hassert Street. I can’t even fathom this.

I just learned from Rachel Maddow that the last three Majority Leaders of the New York State Senate, along with one of the Minority Leaders, and the man who served as Speaker of the State Assembly for 20 years are all serving (or about to serve) prison terms. (Another five N.Y. legislators were in prison or under house arrest at the same time. Nine more just got out of prison. All for different crimes.)

Perhaps Hastert isn’t an aberration, but rather a paragon of what some Americans seek in their top politicians.

That’s all corruption stuff, though. That’s just New York State for you.

I still remember when Hastert became speaker. Gingrich left office (with rumors of extramarital affairs swirling around him). Then the next in line and presumed next speaker, Bob Livingston, announced he wouldn’t take the office (with rumors of extramarital affairs swirling around him). The next guy was Hastert. LOL.

I understand wolfpup’s concerns about not having statutes of limitations, but much of the rest of the world (and I include countries with Anglo-descended jurisprudence) deals with those problems, if problems they be.

wolfpup’s view seems to stem, at least in part, from an idea that judges should not have wide discretions.

Of course, they do. Certainty and predictability of decision making are laudable ideas, but only achievable in a practical sense up to a certain point; hence, discretions. If the law were capable of being reduced to a series of yes/no answer gates, then the job of judging would be done by clerks.

Discretion lives in the realm where reasonable minds can differ, and where the decision maker is forced to balance competing considerations rather than apply an absolute rule. The application of discretion by judges is so common that there is, in most Anglo-derived systems and I assume the US as well, a substantial body of law dealing with how to deal with discretionary decisions on appeal. Usual answer - it is very difficult to upset discretions.

Now this may offend those whose idea of justice carries with it an overly high value placed on certainty and predictability, but since those are only aspirational and not necessarily realistic goals, we have to deal with the world as it is.

Of course questions of degree arise. I am not about to suggest we have no room for certainty in decision-making. But we can’t and don’t have to insist on it to the level where judicial discretion is essentially flushed from the system.

Remember, decisions on topics which are in fact left to discretion are nevertheless decisions that have to be made, one way or another. In the same way that passively refusing to make a decision amounts to affirmatively making a decision for the default setting, so removing discretion from judges amounts to then having to decide what the default setting is. Do not assume that a default in favour of the accused will always be appropriate. The criminal justice system has to actually work. If the system did indeed acquit 9 out of 10 people (via Blackstone’s maxim) society would be riddled with vigilantism and self-help.

And a one-size-fits-all default may not do justice in individual cases. That may be worse than the availability of discretions.

wolfpup also seems to assume that the unavailability of hypothetical defence evidence always means a trial will be unfair. An historical complaint may mean that records no longer exist of the sort of car the accused owned at the time, the geography of the house he lived in, or even which house he lived in. But remember that by virtue of the hypothesis that the evidence doesn’t exist, there is no reason to assume a* priori * that the non-existent evidence must necessarily have favoured the accused. This problem arises all the time even in fresh prosecutions (where documents have been lost, accidentally destroyed, businesses have gone broke, etc). Suppose a murderer burns the body of the deceased so that no post mortem can determine the cause of death. Other evidence points strongly to the guilt of the accused. The accused can’t say 1) I am presumed to be innocent and therefore not the body burner, and 2) that if the body had been available, it might have shown a cause of death inconsistent with my guilt, therefore 3) the trial is unfair, because I have been deprived of an avenue to challenge the prosecution case.

It does not follow that a prosecution must stop in these circumstances or similar. If it were, the defence could invent any number of documents that no longer exist and assert that they would prove his innocence. The accused does not get to populate the hypothetical world of non-existent things with items at his will. And before anyone says “Presumption of innocence” and “proof BRD”, those two issues emerge at the final stage of decision-making, when the jury are dealing with whether they are satisfied that the elements of the offence have been established. They do not necessarily apply at every individual step along the way.

The better solution in my view, and the one adopted by most Anglo-descended countries, is to accept that there is no solution to the stale prosecution problem perfect enough to justify having stopping prosecutions as a default, and so to allow discretion based on principle to be determinative.

Discretions are not, I hasten to add, a coin toss. They are strictly confined to limited areas by the law. Any individual discretion is confined with a framework of rules about its exercise that prevents caprice. While appealing from discretionary decisions may be difficult, any decisions apparently based on no more than caprice will not likely be so difficult.

It’s not like Hastert’s home state of Illinois has a shortage of corrupt politicians who’ve done prison time, either. Of our last eight governors, four have gone to prison (as have several congressmen and any number of state and local officials).

Assuming you were serious about this, yes I am sure.

How is being falsely accused of something you did not do better if the accusation is done before the SoL has passed?

No… This is a non-starter. I don’t have a list of what crimes should have SoL and which ones shouldn’t. But murder seems to reach the threshold for most folks. Child molestation? If true, the offender should be brought to justice. I don’t care if it takes 30 years. If Hastert has victims who could not deal with accusing him because they were too young to process it (or for any reason) but now can, and they have proof, Hastert should be treated like the piece of sub-human garbage he is. One can only hope he is treated like most child molesters are treated in prison.

So what? He SHOULD die in prison.

Fuck that. Why should he get to spend time around loved ones, treated with compassion and care because he is old and feeble? Poor Dennis Hastert…:rolleyes: my heart breaks for him.

He can rot and die in prison, as he should.

He should also be permitted to be sued by any victim who can prove that he abused them. If found guilty, his massive fortune he amassed while he was in congress should be divided up amongst everyone who comes forward.

Wait. Your logic is that since YOU doubt he won’t do it again because he was caught, then he should be free and clear? Which part do you doubt? That he won’t prey on underage children, or that he won’t get caught paying off someone?

I don’t know how someone could convince you that he would continue his criminal ways, but it’s not worth the risk. The judge called him a “serial child molester.” That is a pretty good indication to me that not only has he done more than has been publically announced, but it has been going on for decades. My proof? I guess the lack of any slander charges being filed against the judge at this point indicates to me that Hastert is not going to want to open up that can of worms because the bastard knows what will crawl out. I hope he does sue, because then the world will know what a piece of shit he truly is before he dies. (Make sure his Wikipedia page is updated!)

You should keep in mind that the “banking law” crime he committed (according to the OP) was to COVER UP the cash payments he was forking over to keep his sexual crimes quiet. You make him sound like he forgot to take back a library book 30 years ago, and his sentence is out of line with his crime.

Maybe you should consider how you would feel if

  1. you were one of his victims, or
  2. your child or someone close to you was one of his victims.

Based on what I’ve read on this subject, pedophiles usually continue to do what they do for as long as they can do it. Personally, I wouldn’t want him in my neighborhood (or anyone else’s for that matter). He belongs behind bars, and he should do real time. I have zero compassion for anyone who preys on/hurts children. Psycho-socialpaths should go straight to hell, without collecting $200.