# Hate Jazz but wish you knew a bit more about why? A Jazz 101 thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2010, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031 "2010-12-05T13:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/61 "2010-12-07T18:57:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Thelonius Monk was a big proponent of respecting and preserving the basic structure and melody of a song, and that’s what he practiced, albeit in his own very peculiar way. ‘Nice Work if You Can Get It’ was one of Monk’s favourite standards - he recorded it several times in several different settings. it always sounds like Monk playing it, but you can hear the reverence in which he holds Gershwin - it’s never as quirky as Monk recording his own compositions. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/62 "2010-12-07T19:01:03Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > - whoa; I didn’t know \*any \*of that; I gotta go back and do a re-listen with your liner notes in hand. That’s just my take on it–I’ve never really sat down and analyzed that solo, but I think it’s a pretty accurate deconstruction of what’s going on. (Plus I picked an easier style of jazz–modal jazz–to pick apart. Modal jazz tends to bias towards melody stronger than other forms.) But that perspective is also my approach to improvisation in any style–to find a motif and develop it rhythmically, melodically, harmonically, etc… A solo or lead can’t be completely disconnected from the song. I’m sure you can pick apart the classic rock solos the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/63 "2010-12-07T19:01:50Z")
LOL, **Le Ministre de l’au-delà**! 🙂 > [@Eonwe](#): > > Jazz, on the other hand, by in large, is about the performer’s artistic and creative quality much more than the composer’s. Add me to the list of those going “huh!” and nodding their head vigorously (even taking **pulykamell** ’s excellent post into consideration). 🆒 I think that is exactly what some people mean when they talk about a musician’s “jazz style” or “jazz feel.” In some ways I think that jazz singers have things easier than instrumentalists, in that the Great American Songbook is called that for a reason: we can get away with less improv, because audience members are often happy just to hear a song that they love. But to me there’s a world of difference between someone who gets up there and sings a song straight, however prettily, and someone who makes it his/her own while taking the audience along for the ride: the former may be a good singer, but the latter is a good _jazz_ singer. And the latter is what I’m working to become. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/64 "2010-12-07T19:13:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I have the most profound respect for Monk. He plays with such conviction and perfect phrasing that he could pretty much hit _any_ note during a solo and make it sound right. I remember buying a book of piano jazz transcriptions and they had a transcription of “Nice Work If You Can Get It.” I’m not exactly sure if it’s from [this performance](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EyotKt10pc), but the underlying harmony sounds about right. I remember playing through that and going “what in the fuck? how do you make this sound good?” Witness the performance I linked to. Sounds completely natural and relaxed, even though the harmonies underneath are pretty odd. I just don’t have the jazz feel and phrasing to make it sound that effortless and convincing. The man was a master. amen - and thank you for that great link (I gotta say: having that pretentious French dude do the intro could not be more perfectly illustrative of jazz stereotypes! ;)) But Monk? Oh man, I have to smile when I listen - even most of his downbeat stuff. The creativity! The weird notes that somehow work! How the \*hell \*does he get me to like that stuff?! It’s like insight into particle physics - whenever you grasp a cool insight, you can’t help but smile. And he’s \*universally idiosyncratic \* 😉 - he established his own voice in a way that everybody recognizes as his, and I have yet to hear anyone really replicate… Oh and **Misnomer**? You are on a great and worthy quest! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/65 "2010-12-07T19:40:08Z")
When I first heard Monk, I thought he was fucking up, or rather almost fucking up…coming really close to it. Like, "that note was kind of a clunker…wait maybe it wasn’t…it sounds like he’s doing this on purpose, he’s still holding the basic melody line…those harmonies are weird but it’s sort of working…now he’s off time, he fucked up…wait a second he got it back…actually that worked out perfectly, how did he do that? He initially sounds like he doesn’t know what he’s doing, until you hear how impeccably precise he really is, and how he always knows _exactly_ what he’s doing. It’s like a juggling act where you keep waiting for hm to drop the balls but never does. The very definition of an eccentric musical genius, and one of a kind too. Intsantly recognizable, but no one can duplicate him. People who try to sound like Monk just sound like people trying to sound like Monk. He had a unique oddness all his own. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/66 "2010-12-07T19:46:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When I first heard Monk, I thought he was fucking up, or rather almost fucking up..coming really close to it. Like, "that note was kind of a clunker…wait maybe it wasn’t…it sounds like he’s doing this on purpose, he’s still holding the basic melody line…those harmonies are weird but it’s sort of working…now he’s off time, he fucked up…wait a second he got it back…actually that worked out perfectly, how did he do that? > > He initially sounds like he doesn’t know what he’s doing, until you hear how impeccably precise he really is, and how he always knows _exactly_ what he’s doing. It’s like a juggling act where you keep waiting for hm to drop the balls but never does. The very definition of an eccentric musical genius, and one of a kind too. Intsantly recognizable, but no one can duplicate him. People who try to sound like Monk just sound like people trying to sound like Monk. He had a unique oddness all his own. Really well stated - he’s always perfectly on the edge of slipping out of control of his chords…except he’s not. It’s really magic. [Here’s a great live recording of Blue Monk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRUWtrgTpcs&feature=related)- captures all of this perfectly. Let the Man do his own talking…and is it possible to look cooler? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/67 "2010-12-07T19:55:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > When I first heard Monk, I thought he was fucking up, or rather almost fucking up..coming really close to it. Like, "that note was kind of a clunker…wait maybe it wasn’t…it sounds like he’s doing this on purpose, he’s still holding the basic melody line…those harmonies are weird but it’s sort of working…now he’s off time, he fucked up…wait a second he got it back…actually that worked out perfectly, how did he do that? > > He initially sounds like he doesn’t know what he’s doing, until you hear how impeccably precise he really is, and how he always knows _exactly_ what he’s doing. It’s like a juggling act where you keep waiting for hm to drop the balls but never does. The very definition of an eccentric musical genius, and one of a kind too. Intsantly recognizable, but no one can duplicate him. People who try to sound like Monk just sound like people trying to sound like Monk. He had a unique oddness all his own. Actually, I would say Thelonius Monk _is_ indeed a bit sloppy. But the way he plays the slop and the way his playing teeters against the rhythm, almost spinning out of control, is what makes his playing so exciting and interesting. He just holds it together and there’s just no way to possibly learn or imitate that idiosyncratic voice of his. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/68 "2010-12-07T19:57:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, I would say Thelonius Monk _is_ indeed a bit sloppy. But the way he plays the slop and the way his playing teeters against the rhythm, almost spinning out of control, is what makes his playing so exciting and interesting. He just holds it together and there’s just no way to possibly learn or imitate that idiosyncratic voice of his. Waitaminnit - are we making another connection to Eddie Van Halen? That sounds just like him, too. And yeah, no question - Thelonius was a slop-meister. In my humble opinion, all the best ones are! Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, EVH - if you don’t risk the slop, you aren’t pushing boundaries, man! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/69 "2010-12-07T20:18:25Z")
I like to think of it as an off-the-cuff speech. Great extemporaneous orators are not perfect. There’s unintended pauses, a few “uhs” and “ums” thrown in there, sometimes the exact right word doesn’t come to mind, but the one that does is close enough. The quality of an orator is in the delivery of their words, their conviction, their connection to the audience, and the overall impression. A good musical solo is much the same. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/70 "2010-12-07T20:30:38Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’m not really sure I completely agree with this. A good jazz solo takes the song into account and does try to throw in melodic phrases that hint at the melody or rhythms. I can’t speak for “the average performer,” but listen to what Coltrane does in [My Favorite Things](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I6xkVRWzCY). > > \ > > Anyhow, I’m not going to go through the entire song, but my point is that many jazz solos have a lot more structure and take a lot more inspiration from the source material than you seem to be giving them credit for. And there are melodic and rhythmic hooks in a good solo, too (unless you’re playing one of the freer forms of jazz, I suppose, but I really don’t know much about that sort of stuff.) A solo (in my opinion at least) should not be a random, loose connection of scales. There needs to be some connection to the original piece, and the ideas formed out of it should progress from the melody, the rhythm, or general feel of the original tune. It need not be all three, but at least one of these. Great post, and great point. And, we don’t disagree, I think. My point, in the spirit of the thread, is that while many jazz solos get a lot of structure/inspiration from the source material, many of them don’t, and/or much of the source material is very similar, so that they lead to the same sorts of inspirations. Coltrane is fabulous. Favorite Things is a nice, atypical song. You can point to the ‘giants’ and say, “see, jazz can be incredible,” and I wouldn’t argue. But, most players, most of the time, aren’t that good. I know plenty of professional jazz musicians, and while they’re all talented players, almost none of them are talented expressionists, beyond a basic jazz vocabularly of rhythms and scales. Take 10 of 'em, throw them together individually with a bass and drummer, give them all the same song to do, and most of them will sound fairly interchangable, particularly to the untrained/unfamiliar ear. I give solos plenty of credit. Even an average player is doing much much more than noodling on scales. My point is that to make an improv over _Ornithology_ interesting and unique in an enduring way is a gargantuan task, and one that few people are up to. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/71 "2010-12-07T20:32:07Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I like to think of it as an off-the-cuff speech. Great extemporaneous orators are not perfect. There’s unintended pauses, a few “uhs” and “ums” thrown in there, sometimes the exact right word doesn’t come to mind, but the one that does is close enough. The quality of an orator is in the delivery of their words, their conviction, their connection to the audience, and the overall impression. A good musical solo is much the same. Nicely put! I think you could expand that analogy to describe good art in general. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/72 "2010-12-08T02:44:41Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Jazz, on the other hand, by in large, is about the performer’s artistic and creative quality much more than the composer’s. Not to knock jazz composition, but take any jazz “standard.” It’s probably a 30 second to 1.5 minute melody and harmonic structure. Some are better than others, but typically they’re a vehicle and a launching off point for the improvization that is to follow. > > Most jazz uses a lot of the same chord changes, modes, scales, and so forth, and so more often than not, once you get beyond the head of a tune, the improvization of average-level players is going to sound _the same_, tune to tune. I think a lot of why jazz is ‘boring’ for people is related to this. Unless the arrangement is unique, or the playing is top notch (and even then), an uptempo solo over related ii-V-I’s, or a balad of I-vi-ii-V’s is song independant. An hour performance might include 5-10 minutes of ‘the melody’ and 50 minutes of soloing with the same scales over the same tired progressions. One could say the same about blues, country and many forms of pop/rock. ( **I** wouldn’t, because I like blues, country and many forms of pop/rock.) I remember bar bands in the 70s, where it took four agonizing minutes to realize "Oh, that’s supposed to be Led Zeppelin’s ‘Rock and Roll’. I also remember Cham Paine, a fabulous pianist, band leader and educator from my home town, who at times was the only member of the musician’s union in the city. (And even when he had company, it was usually the rest of his current band.) He was tireless in his dedication to the music and to developing the talents of the musicians he surrounded himself with. No, he was not Bill Evans, but it was through him that I discovered and ‘heard’ what Bill Evans was about. You didn’t leave one of Cham’s concerts feeling like you should have done something else with your evening. I’ve often remarked how lucky I was to grow up in a city of ~25,000 people that had such remarkable mentors for musicians, and he’s usually the first names I say, with a smile of gratitude. So, uh, maybe you’re right, **Eonwe** , but that certainly hasn’t been my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/73 "2010-12-08T02:50:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wonder how it translates “toker.” Well, it didn’t tranlate ‘cowboy’ nor ‘gangster of’, so I’m guessing it wouldn’t translate ‘toker’ either. A better stab at it might be ‘bibulus fumandum’ which is a little like ‘drunken smoker’… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/74 "2010-12-08T03:37:34Z")
> [@SurrenderDorothy](#): > > I just wanted to say, while I really don’t have a strong opinion of jazz either way, I liked this post. I have to agree, the OP was well done. I personally dislike jazz, even positively hate some forms, but not through ignorance - my sister was a professional jazz musician for quite some time, and her entire family are jazz enthusiasts. I could not help but be educated, which is one of the reasons I appreciated the OP and would encourage **WordMan** to, um spread the word, man! People should make their aesthetic choices based on knowledge, not ignorance. (I still don’t like jazz myself, but I appreciate the fact that others adore it. To each their own. I like some forms of music many others don’t. Go figger.) ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/75 "2010-12-08T04:01:10Z")
I love this thread. I’m not a hater, but I’m not all that knowledgeable. > [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Here’s the thing - if I’m lucky enough to have any one of you visit my house, you will first be offered your choice of beer, wine or whisky; tea, coffee, herbal teas, hot chocolate, cappuccino, latte, cafe mocha; milk, OJ, AJ, or indeed anything you want that I have in the house. If you tell me you hate whisky, that’s fine - there are other things to drink and more for me. If your needs are very particular, I will run to the store. > > You’ll be offered your choice of any foods in the house, including gourmet cheeses, dumplings, fruits, vegetables, leftovers, burgers, pate, etc., etc… If you tell me you hate cheese, fine - I won’t offer you any. > > If I offer to put anything on the stereo and you tell me you hate jazz, that’s fine - you can sort through the collection yourself and put on anything you like. There’s lots of classical, rock, folk, pop, ‘world’ - the only trick is going to be that it’s not filed in different places. The 'A’s go Abdelli, John Abercrombie, King Sunny Ade, Aerosmith, Isaac Albeniz, Arabo-Andalusian music, Joan Armatrading, Louis Armstrong, etc… And I love this attitude. I wish more enthusaiasts of any genre (of any art form) had this outlook. It’s one I know I strive for. > [@Eonwe](#): > > Another random jazz thought I had yesterday: > > Classical music can provide transcendant experience on the weight of the composition itself, if the performer reaches a certain, easily attainable level of competency. > > I’m no amazing pianist, but give me time with, say, a Chopin nocturne, and I can do a fine job bringing Chopin to anyone who wants to listen. (This is not to say that the performer isn’t important, or that better players than I don’t bring something else to pieces that I cannot). > > Jazz, on the other hand, by in large, is about the performer’s artistic and creative quality much more than the composer’s. Not to knock jazz composition, but take any jazz “standard.” It’s probably a 30 second to 1.5 minute melody and harmonic structure. Some are better than others, but typically they’re a vehicle and a launching off point for the improvization that is to follow. > > Most jazz uses a lot of the same chord changes, modes, scales, and so forth, and so more often than not, once you get beyond the head of a tune, the improvization of average-level players is going to sound _the same_, tune to tune. I think a lot of why jazz is ‘boring’ for people is related to this. Unless the arrangement is unique, or the playing is top notch (and even then), an uptempo solo over related ii-V-I’s, or a balad of I-vi-ii-V’s is song independant. An hour performance might include 5-10 minutes of ‘the melody’ and 50 minutes of soloing with the same scales over the same tired progressions. > > It’s actually a big part of why I don’t go out to see much jazz around here; out of big cities, all the jazz available on a regular basis are just combo groups playing basically unrehearsed standards in predictable ways. Now this isn’t true of all flavors of jazz, right? Seems to my (mostly ignorant) observations that the old Dixieland style isn’t so dependent on improv. Am I right? Or way off? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/76 "2010-12-08T07:31:48Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > That’s hilarious, too - what is that from? What’s funny is that the musicians are actually really good (oh, wait - are they just miming over recorded tracks? :smack:…and the guy’s statements are technically correct…kinda. Really funny. It’s a BBC comedy from the 90s called _The Fast Show_, whose targets for satire were obscure to say the least. One of the funniest comedies since Monty Python, IMO. The key comedians are just miming over the music but there are real musicians on stage too. There was one sketch with the Jazz Club where the guy said something like: "and now, a classical quartet plays jazz standards - in a classical style. [turns to camera conspiratorially] “… Crap.” ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/77 "2010-12-08T14:01:38Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > One could say the same about blues, country and many forms of pop/rock. ( **I** wouldn’t, because I like blues, country and many forms of pop/rock.) I remember bar bands in the 70s, where it took four agonizing minutes to realize "Oh, that’s supposed to be Led Zeppelin’s ‘Rock and Roll’. > > ::snip:: > > So, uh, maybe you’re right, **Eonwe** , but that certainly hasn’t been my experience. **Le Ministre** - I hear some pain in your post: the pain of the performing musician who hears someone they don’t know well say “but it all comes down to X or Y” when it feels completely different to you. What I read in \*\*Eonwe’s \*\*post was: “small-combo jazz is designed to feature solos, and your average jazz soloist has big shoes to fill - both in terms of length of time and saying something on a level with the Greats. It’s hard.” What I am hearing you say in your reply is “that’s true within any form - given that genre’s rules, there is stuff that most players struggle with - and yeah, an audience can suffer as a result. But there can still be a ton of entertainment, value and fun.” How’d I do? If I did okay, then I would say: you’re both right. The challenge for jazz is back to the OP - folks who don’t get jazz are sometimes put off by the \*\*\*complexity \*\*\*of it and sometimes by the \*\*\*execution \*\*\*of it. Face it: jazz has barriers to entry for the average listener - hence this thread. 😉 In terms of leads and solos - there was [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=461624)from a couple of years ago about to approach/structure rock leads. In it, I had stated this: [QUOTE=Me] Hmmm - never that hard and fast, but there are a few points: - I call the beginning of a solo “the mount” and the end “the dismount” - like in gymnastics. You have to have a conscious start and a clean end that you need to stick the landing on, you know? - In the middle, I try to play something that utilizes melodic phrases from the song, scales and licks I am comfortable with, etc. - but to really be conscious of what my purpose is. If I am playing a slow song - like Turn Me On by Norah Jones, I try to capture that languid bluesy feel. If I am playing Brown Sugar and subbing for the sax solo, there are some key “landmarks” where I have licks I try to hit hard to sell the saxy feel. If I am playing over a verse that transitions into chorus while I am still soloing, I really try to have a “kick it up a notch” lick or sound that builds on the crescendo of the transition. Bottom line is that the song comes first and you have to serve the song. I listen to Lindsey Buckingham’s solo in Don’t Stop by Fleetwood Mac where he nails the same damn note for, I dunno 8 or 12 measures - just stinging the crap out of it - and it fits perfectly. That’s one of many examples of a gold standard for fitting the song - more people remember that solo than any shredder solo. Same with Mike Campbell of Tom Petty’s band - listen to the tastiness of his licks at the end of American Girl… [/QUOTE] I think this is a bit of what \*\*pulykamell \*\*is talking about upthread: you have a sense of entry and exit and a sense of structure, and a bag of licks, tricks and theory that has become second nature enough for you to access. So - how does all that come together to make a solo? Within jazz, those pieces - the entry, exit, structure, licks, tricks, theory, etc. - are very different vs. rock, say, even over similar chords and rhythms… ETA: oh and **jjimm** , thanks for that background; crap indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/78 "2010-12-08T15:53:20Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > One could say the same about blues, country and many forms of pop/rock. ( **I** wouldn’t, because I like blues, country and many forms of pop/rock.) I remember bar bands in the 70s, where it took four agonizing minutes to realize "Oh, that’s supposed to be Led Zeppelin’s ‘Rock and Roll’. I think you’re exactly right about blues, but would argue this point about rock. The beauty about a lot of rock is that any group of halfway decent players who have a good ear for the big picture, and don’t play songs that are technically beyond them can get a bar shouting, singing along and on their feet with just about any familiar rock tune. Or, even karaoke. I mean, sometimes the performances suck, but audiences love it because of the _song_ not the singer. No crowd is going to enjoy a mediocre version of _All of Me_, but a crappy band playing _Wanted Dead or Alive_ is going to be able to get a positive response out of a decent chunk of the crowd. But, I’m getting a little off track, and kind of playing devil’s advocate. I’m trying to look at it from an ‘uneducated’ perspective and argue why might a person dislike jazz. And, one of the biggest differences between jazz and most other popular forms of music is that jazz is so much more about the performer than it is about the song. You go listen to Keith Jarrett or Hiromi Uehara because of the _way_ they play; the average listener doesn’t care about the program. You go listen to Bon Jovi because you want to hear them play their hits. A rock band can have 10s of bland, boring songs, but get one hit, for whatever reason, and they’ll have a following. A jazzer can’t rely on the “hit song” to blind people to his or her other failings. I hope that makes a little more sense. And, what **WordMan** said as well, who seems better at figuring out what I’m trying to say than I am myself. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/79 "2010-12-08T16:49:46Z")
That makes a ton of sense to me - and I think jazz players start with standards to anchor their explorations with some familiarity, but they don’t have nearly the same number of “automatic shout-along/flick your lighter/pump your fist/get up and dance” cues as your average hit cover song… ---
**Author:** ![poet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@poet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/poet)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031/80 "2010-12-08T17:27:09Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=587700&page=2)entitled “What should you like, but don’t” - in Post #60 I comment on how many folks have stated that they don’t like Jazz. I argue that perhaps they aren’t grounded in some of the basics of jazz. \*\*Novelty Bobble \*\*and a few other dopers come back with some thoughts, and by Post #75 **NAF1138** has asked that a thread be started on jazz appreciation. > > So here we are. > > The purpose of this thread is to give folks who don’t know jazz - who have listened a bit and really, really hate some of the stuff they heard 😉 - and give them a safe place to ask questions. > > So - if you HATE jazz - that’s cool; feel free to keep hating it and I feel no obligation to convince you otherwise - YMMV right? But if you aren’t sure WHY you hate jazz - and/or would like to figure out what you might like about jazz and isolate the parts that you really, really hate - well, maybe a thread like this can help. > > And since many, many other Dopers are jazz fans, I am sure most questions can be answered - help me out here jazz cats! > > So, to start - a few observations about listening to jazz: > > [ul] > [li] **Know, broadly, about what jazz you hate** - when folks say they hate jazz, they are often referring to specific sub-categories. Jazz started at the turn of the 1900’s in New Orleans, and up through the 40’s, the jazz being created is stuff, O Jazz Hater, you probably like or at least don’t hate - I will see if I can find a few links:[/li][/ul] > > - [Louis Armstrong’s Hot 5](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksmGt2U-xTE) - early New Orleans/ Dixieland Jazz - you may not like the song, but it doesn’t evoke that “hate” you feel for jazz, right? > > - [Benny Goodman Sing, Sing, Sing](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mJ4dpNal_k)- what, you don’t like this??? What’s wrong with you man?! ;)😃 Top-Shelf swing jazz - just big, fully orchestrated and fun. I would be very surprised if a Jazz Hater singled this type of swing jazz out for hate. Again, you are welcome to not like it, but I don’t this is a song that pushes jazz-hate buttons… > > What folks most typically start to hate is **Small-Combo Jazz** , especially when it moves into \*\*Be-Bop \*\*and **Hard Bop**. Small Combo just means that it is a 4, 5 or 6 piece band, not a full orchestra. BeBop is a style of jazz that emerged in the 40’s. Here’s a classic from the genre - [Koko](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_ZajJd-1kY&feature=related)by Charlie Parker. Feelin’ the hate yet? 😉 This is the 1940’s jazz equivalent of heavy metal shredding - boys feelin’ macho and stretching it out technically… > > Building on Bop, many jazz soloists tried to explore things further - John Coltrane is known for pushing boundaries. [In this clip](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4TbrgIdm0E), which I posted in the other thread, we see a couple of styles. Miles Davis plays beautiful, accessible trumpet solos in this version of So What - but 2 minutes in, Coltrane takes over - can you hear the difference? Do your ears shut down? That’s because Coltrane is taking the Bop approach you heard from Charlie Parker and breaking even more rules. He is the equivalent of Modern Art. He is “playing out,” i.e., outside - breaking rules. By the time he gets to his revolutionary verison of [My Favorite Things](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I6xkVRWzCY&feature=related), he might as well be spattering paint on a canvas (it starts out melodic and all Sound-of-Musicky, then just, well - listen to it) - i.e., “my 3 year old can violate a saxophone just as well…” > > But - here’s the point: if you love Impressionism and Matisse’s art, and many examples up to the wacky Modern Art that surfaced, well - that’s jazz. You probably love the just-over-the-line early jazz (like Impressionism - it was a new language but not super challenging once you learn the language) - it’s when the rules start to really get broken that your ears shut down… > > So - you can avoid Bop and Coltrane and Out playing - but if you want to listen to some of that early small-combo jazz, or at least “get it a bit more” - what are some guidelines? Here are two - and help me out here, jazz Dopers, I am sure there are more: > > [ul] > [li] **Follow the High Hat** - most of us grew up on Pop, Rock, Country, etc. - the beat is kept on the snare or kick drum - boom-spat, boom-boom-spat, right? - but with small-combo jazz, they use the little sandwich cymbols, aka the high-hat, to keep the time. If you listen to that version Koko I link to above - it is a bad recording and you CAN’T hear the high hat - it just sounds like random sounds if you don’t know how to fill in the rhythm - they are just playing superfast. But listen to this recording of Dizzy Gillespie’s [Salt Peanuts](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpuHy5fVjCU&feature=fvw)- the “tsk tsk tsk” of the high hat kicks of the song and makes it MUCH easier to follow. Still superfast, but listenable.[/li][/ul] > [ul] > [li] **Know the Difference between a Lead and a Solo** - this is tricky. Just like we grew up listening to music with a specific approach to keeping time, same with solo work. As a rule, pop/rock/country leads are, well leads - they are instrumental breaks designed to fit into the song. Yes some go for a long time and get jammy, but you are meant to listen to them, well, musically. Small-combo/bop jazz solos are NOT leads - they are SOLO’s - a much better comparison would be with improv theater; imagine a person being handed a set up and then expected to just talk on the topic. They can be mellow or get outraged - they are certainly going to quote some of their favorite thinkers and speakers. But there is going to be a wandering, exploratory feel - they are NOT trying to fit into a song; the song was just a launching point to frame their point of view. If you go back and listen to So What, you can hear where Miles, then Coltrane, each take their queue and then try to express themselves in a solo format - they are NOT playing leads…[/li][/ul] > > Okay - that’s a long start; sorry if I lost everyone and if this thread just dies, well, I gave it a shot. So - does this help you figure out what you hate about jazz and, hopefully, what you might like about it? It would be great to hear from some jazz haters with examples, questions or just rants… I, in fact, love jazz. I’m an aficionado, and an avid collector. I have family member who has a jazz quartet, out of NYC, who routinely play overseas. My favorite vocalist, Chaka Khan’s jazz outing, “Echoes of An Era”, which was Grammy-nominated, turned me on to progressive jazz, and I have been a fan and collector since. I’m also a huge fan of Joni Mitchell, Joe Sample, Dianne Reeves, Betty Carter, Joe Williams, Jeff Lorber, Dee Dee Bridgewater, Cassandra Wilson, and Paul English, to name but a few. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-jazz-but-wish-you-knew-a-bit-more-about-why-a-jazz-101-thread/563031.md?page=5)