Just had a thought - one of my favourite pieces of piano playing is Keith Jarrett improvising at a concert in Köln. He’s straight out of the jazz stable, having played with Miles Davis, but this piece doesn’t touch on any of my complaints about the genre - he manages to be evocative, lyrical and moving.
I’d like to plug my favorite internet radio jazz ztation: Jazz24 from KPLU in Seattle. They play jazz from every era and if they’ve ever played Kenny G, I sure didn’t notice it.
Hey everyone; back in my office on a Monday and swamped, swamped, swamped. I continue to appreciate the kind words and am enjoying the posts; I will check in hopefully by lunchtime.
**Dio **- I hadn’t made that connection, but yeah, I hear a bit of Coltrane in EVH - interesting…
…and for those of you who don’t like the basically tonality/voice of the instruments involved, etc. - sounds like you know why you don’t like jazz 
Another vote for “great post, WordMan!” If you write a book about jazz, I’d buy it.
I don’t have any particular feeling one way or the other about jazz. I’ve long thought it’s something I ought to learn to appreciate more; and yet, I have enough other musical interests to keep me happy that I don’t really have a jazz-shaped hole in my life.
Nice thread, WordMan, and thanks for the quote.
I particularly like the analogy with impressionism. Jazz and the visual arts mirror each other quite strongly over most of the last century, with jazz playing a bit of catch-up in the early 1900s.
I don’t have much to add to this thread, as I come at jazz with a very limited amount of knowledge/history, but I will say that until the 40s/50s, jazz/tinpan alley/Broadway/film musicals were in many ways one and the same (or at least about 70% the same). American music was jazz, until Rock and Roll started to exert its influence. All of the big songwriters were writing in the jazz idiom, or with jazz sensibilities. Richard Rodgers, Cole Porter, and their ilk were pumping out the songs that jazzers were playing. In keeping with the current season, even ‘Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas,’ a holiday staple, was written in '44 for film, and is, in essence, a jazz song.
Which raises a somewhat interesting question. There is a difference between jazz songs, and jazz playing. Some jazz songs can be done in a very un-jazz-like fashion but still be jazz. Some non-jazz songs can be turned into jazz by jazz players. Though, that’s maybe a discussion for another thread.
I’d not only buy it, I’d write pullquotes for your jacket flap. Intelligent, accessible jazz writing is a lost craft. It might help bridge the gap between jazz musicians and potential listeners.
Another thing that might: jazz writing with a postmodern awareness of social “scenes”:
As lame as the pseudo-jazz-loving hipsters are, the real, dedicated jazz fan is a stereotype unto himself. Once the coolness leaves, the core fandom that’s left is very insular and interested in little else, lowering the cultural relevance of the music even further.
I’d not only buy it, I’d write pullquotes for your jacket flap. Intelligent, accessible jazz writing is a lost craft. It might help bridge the gap between jazz musicians and potential listeners.
Another thing that might: jazz writing with a postmodern awareness of social “scenes”:
As lame as the pseudo-jazz-loving hipsters are, the real, dedicated jazz fan is a stereotype unto himself. Once the coolness leaves, the core fandom that’s left is very insular - think American Splendor - and does nothing for the public image of the music.
Yeah. It’s just that jazz fans are always saying “It’s only because you’re ignorant!” and I’m like “no, actually I don’t like the way it sounds.” Honestly, the other problem with Jazz fans is that they never shut up about it. If you don’t like, I don’t know… German Industrial, the fans can take no for an answer. Secretly, they might think you have no taste. Whereas, if you admit to not liking Jazz, you lack cultcha and are an embarassment to the educated classes. What’s up with that? How did squeaky trumpet appreciation become a ticket to bourgeoise acceptability?
For those who have a problem with bop and progressive, you might try some more-or-less post-bop artists like Chet Baker, Dave Brubeck and Stan Getz. It’s a mellower sound, and sax doesn’t get much more listenable than Paul Desmond’s alto. No squealing or wild forays. Baker’s trumpet is very mellow, and his vocals are soothing. I prefer a bit more adventure with brass, but sure understand peoples’ aversion to high notes. For piano, much of Thelonious Monk’s music is innovative without being too “out there”. An excellent album for jazz for people who dislike jazz might be Portraits by Ellington, by the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra.
I just wanted to post a little different perspective. Growing up my dad listened to a lot of mainstream big band stuff, Artie Shaw, Glen Miller, Benny Goodman, etc., and I hated it and thougth it was lame. Therefore, I thought I hated Jazz. It wasn’t until I heard bop and post-bop stuff that I discovered an appreciation for jazz. This happened somewhat by accident, because the health food restaurant in Champaign that had great hot salsa and cheap, good beer on tap often had jazz combos playing at night.
I think the poster above who compared Coltrane to EVH may be on to something. I was an aspiring metal head guitar player and pretty much only listened to hard rock until I heard Coltrane. I still can’t play the guitar, but now I listen to a lot more jazz than hard rock.
My brother in law teaches jazz at University of Texas, which seems pretty easy to me. He can just make things up as he goes along.
But seriously though, it sounds like a facinating class. By studying and replicating the jazz greats, the students then begin to understand jazz’s improv nature. In theory, at least.
Okay - I think the Strategic Plan is just about done here at work and can be sent out - phew.
Now - onto the important stuff 
**Eonwe **- great point; just look at Coltrane’s version of My Favorite Things linked to in the OP; a non-jazz song totally jazzed up. Bottom line: if you take a nice chord progression and/or melody and, instead of sticking with a verse/chorus type structure, instead you use that foundation as a jumping off point for improv, you’re getting jazzy…
**Hello Again **and **Beware of Doug **- ah yes, rabid jazz nuts. It is always frustrating when obsessive geeks dismiss the non-fellow-obsessive as unworthy. To me that is a universal - you could be discussing jazz, cooking ingredients to foodies, dog breeds to dog nuts - there always seems to be a level of precision that: a) someone always tried to out-precision you on; and b) COMPLETELY misses the beauty and intent behind the interest in the first place. When you are going nuts over the variety of salt you are cooking with and not just enjoying the dish, you’ve lost me. With jazz, I fall back on that quote I grabbed from Eonwe: I got to a place where I know what I like (and don’t) and why. I have no time for obsessive jazz twits and no, I don’t know the side man on every frikkin’ album.
**Chefguy **- yeah, folks like Brubeck with Paul Desmond on horn is so wonderful and accessible. Listen to Take Five - remember follow the high hat! And here’s Chet Baker’s Let’s Get Lost…
**CPomeroy **and Dio - back to Coltrane and Bop and EVH and such. Hmm, I guess I would say two things:
- Stuff like Bop and Coltrane’s more Out stuff I often mentally group with Modern Art, post-modern fiction like Joyce’s Ulysses and some of the more complex Prog Rock and Metal (with a ton of time-sig changes and other technical complexity). Bottom line: those are art forms that expect - nay, *demand *- that you come to them. To get to the place where you can listen to any artistic messages they may be making, you first have to “crack their code.” It sounds like you, CPomeroy, dig that kind of stuff - totally cool, but, as you note, coming at things from a different direction.
As for Coltrane’s soloing and EVH, I will say this: With Coltrane, the way I finally wrapped my brain around Coltrane was: this is a guy who wants to stand out and is full of energy, whipping out scale runs (as mentioned before) like a high-energy kid trying to sit still but vibrating in his seat waiting to be called - but once he’s called, practically stumbles over himself trying to articulate his thinking. Also, Coltrane, to my ear, is provocative: what is the melodic, well-phrased thing to say right here? What would Miles or someone even more sublime like Ben Webster (his version of Chelsea Bridge - swoon!) say here? Well, Coltrane seems to think about that, and then go out of his way to say the *opposite *- he is going for that jarring statement that STANDS OUT. Go back and listen to that version of So What from the OP - Miles is fully melodic and then Coltrane just jumps into the mix. His ability to always find that “perfectly opposite” thing to say is a lot harder than you might think.
When I listen to EVH’s lead, I hear the same thing - too much creativity to sit and wait and be all melodic (unless he is playing a structured, must-repeat-exactly lead like the one in Running with the Devil) - instead he throws as much creativity out there and mixes it up with two-hand tapping, 12-fret harmonics and whammy diving bombs…
**jjimm **- I had missed that post the first time around; thank you for linking to it.
And since you guys have been so nice with your comments about the writing, I just wanted to make sure you had a chance to see the columns I did for **twickster **/ teemings; I have no clue if anyone ever read them (except for the Dopers I harrassed via PM ;):D).
On Jump Blues /huge rock-influencing guitarist T-Bone Walker
On rockabilly obscurity but hugely influential guitarist Cliff Gallup
On forgotten-but-rediscovered proto-punk band Death
If you haven’t seen them, I hope you enjoy them.
Thanks for starting the thread WordMan. I am actually someone who really likes Jazz but am never capable of really putting the arguments you posted into something as coherent as you were able to. Reading the other thread it seemed like a good thread idea to make this one but I knew I wasn’t the right one to start it, so I thought I would ask.
I was not wrong.
Yeah, I got my nickname WordMan for some good reasons - but mostly because I won’t shut up. Thanks.
Hey, I hadn’t caught your Teemings stuff. Bobby Hackney Jr’s a friend (friendly acquaintance) of mine. We went to high school together, and I bump into him around town a fair amount, though I’ve never played with him. I missed the Death ‘reunion show,’ but I have caught a Rough Francis show or two.
Awesome OP, WordMan! 
I’m an aspiring jazz singer with (of course) a deep appreciation of vocal jazz, but a somewhat limited palate for instrumental jazz. Give me a straight-ahead trio (piano, bass, drum) and I can listen for days; throw in a trumpet and I’m giddy. I have jazz piano and jazz trumpet albums that you’d have to pry out of my cold, dead hands. I’ve never been a saxophone fan, though, so sax combos do little for me (and wow is there a lot of sax in jazz). Also, I’m of two minds regarding the more modern/experimental stuff: part of me appreciates it as composition and respects the musicians involved, but it’s not what I turn to for my personal listening enjoyment. I already know why I don’t like what I don’t like, but I just thought I’d share…and present myself as another jazz fan who is neither rabid nor condescending. 
Thanks for this thread.
Exactly! That is the jazz that I hate - when the musician seems to be, at best, embarrassed to play anything so tacky and pedestrian as a melody.
It’s not unfamiliarity. I enjoy a lot of music that is pretty far removed from my cultural background - the two most intense concert experiences of my life were a Bulgarian choir and Diamonda Galas’ The Plague Mass. But all the music I love has, at it’s core, tunefulness. The apparent contempt for the tune that many Jazz players seem to have really drives me away.
That said, I appreciate Jazz players working to support a tune - The Holly Cole Trio’s version of I Can See Clearly Now
Oh wow - cool! The story of that band is fascinating and the music really good if you dig rock and punk…
First off - WordMan, you need to start writing musicology texts - I had a prof in uni who was adamant that you had to come to some understanding of the social and historical context of music in order to approach the piece. His specialty was 18th and 19th century classical - yours is 20th and 21st century popular. (I say this in the full knowledge that musicology is the profession fun forgot - you could be the one to change all that.) Anyway, he’d be totally down with your imagery and ideas…
Here’s the thing - if I’m lucky enough to have any one of you visit my house, you will first be offered your choice of beer, wine or whisky; tea, coffee, herbal teas, hot chocolate, cappuccino, latte, cafe mocha; milk, OJ, AJ, or indeed anything you want that I have in the house. If you tell me you hate whisky, that’s fine - there are other things to drink and more for me. If your needs are very particular, I will run to the store.
You’ll be offered your choice of any foods in the house, including gourmet cheeses, dumplings, fruits, vegetables, leftovers, burgers, pate, etc., etc… If you tell me you hate cheese, fine - I won’t offer you any.
If I offer to put anything on the stereo and you tell me you hate jazz, that’s fine - you can sort through the collection yourself and put on anything you like. There’s lots of classical, rock, folk, pop, ‘world’ - the only trick is going to be that it’s not filed in different places. The 'A’s go Abdelli, John Abercrombie, King Sunny Ade, Aerosmith, Isaac Albeniz, Arabo-Andalusian music, Joan Armatrading, Louis Armstrong, etc…
I’m saying all that because I adamantly believe you get to like whatever you like and dislike what ever you choose to dislike. There’s a line between enthusiasm and musical snobbery. So if you tell me you’re interested in my recommendations for jazz music, I’m happy to make suggestions and go from there. I’m a little baffled as to what to say about hating jazz and wanting to know more about it.
‘Jazz’ as a main genre is too big - it covers too many styles to be particularly useful. All the sub-genres get too picky and too hung up; there are a number of great artists whose discographies transcend a handful of sub-genres. Where to start?
The most important two elements of jazz are its rhythmic language based on syncopation and its use of improvisation. Most jazz musicians are using both at the same time. The rhythmic language changes from style to style, but the idea of syncopation, putting the accent on unexpected beats, is consistent throughout the different styles, whether the beat is supposed to swing, drive, be funky or be mellow.
To answer jjimm’s question from much earlier - yes, a good jazz musician is aware of the music he is creating and how it fits with what everyone else is playing. For example, listen to Coltrane’s playing here with Johnny Hartman - it’s quite different from WordMan’s earlier examples. (I do think you’re a little too hard on Coltrane, singling him out like that - he was doing similar things to what Mingus, Dolphy, Coleman, Hemphill and Cecil Taylor were doing at that time. He was very much a man of his time.) Why? Because Trane is playing to suit the mood of the piece as set by the singer and the rest of the band. This was not the time and place for sheets of sound. It’s interesting because Hartman digs down and finds some deeper music for this recording, inspired by the fact that he would be collaborating with Trane. (Somewhere I had a list of which tracks they were together for, and which tracks Trane dubbed; can I find it since we moved?) Anyway, yes, to quote Winton Marsalis, jazz is like a conversation, and if you’re trying to have a conversation with someone who isn’t going to listen to you, it’s not going to be very interesting for anybody, is it? When it’s interesting is when someone says something and it makes someone else think of something else, which they say. Then somebody else agrees with them and says ‘Yes, but what about…’ and it keeps things lively, interesting and stimulating.
As far as the free stuff goes, I’d like to suggest that if nothing else, perhaps you can appreciate the exuberant energy behind it. It’s like the auditory equivalent of dogs in a park when you let them off the leash - they run around and chase each other, they jump, they snarl, they bark, they roll and tumble then somebody does the puppy bow and they’re off running again. At first, there doesn’t seem to be any order to it, but as you watch, you start to realize that Violet and Benji are sweet on each other, but Olive is shy and Desmond is a bit of a prick. You see the personalities, you see the dynamic emerge. And that’s how I hear free jazz.
I must crash, but like I said before I started rambling - just because I like it doesn’t mean you have to.