# Hate Pride and Self Deception **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685 "2015-04-28T00:05:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/21 "2015-04-28T19:06:16Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > “The power to tell whether someone is motivated by sincerely held principles or by hate just by talking to him” What the hell is the difference? If someone is filled with hate, does it make a difference whether that hate comes from “sincerely held principles” or his warped upbringing, or what he ate for breakfast? Hate is hate, and religion is no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/22 "2015-04-28T19:12:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Did you know there are other books in the Bible, which is (for Christians) generally divided into an Old Testament portion (which contains Leviticus) and a New Testament? > > Did you know that Christians regard both the Old Testament and the New Testament as having authority, and the New Testament, being Newer, as winning in case of contradiction? > > Did you know that in the New Testament, the issue of unclean foods like shellfish comes up? > > It does! In Mark 7:5, the Pharisees rebuke Jesus for his followers’ lack of adherence to the mitzvah of washing hands before eating. Jesus replies to them, ending his comments thusly: > > Did you know that? > > If not… now you do, and now you understand that it’s perfectly consistent, and not at all a gotcha, to point out to a Christian that Leviticus forbids shellfish. That’s because the Christian presumably believes that after Leviticus was written, along came the Son of God, the Word made Flesh, and he countermanded that particular injunction of Leviticus. > > I lay this out in detail because you’re not the first commentator on the SDMB to suggest, either directly or obliquely, some sort of dissonance on the part of Christians for enjoying Red Lobster coupon nights. Excellent detailed work in breaking apart that one sentence. Is it your contention then that Jesus didn’t say anything in the New Testament that countermanded the death penalty for homosexuality? Perhaps “Love thy neighbor as thyself”? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/23 "2015-04-28T19:21:56Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > Is it your contention then that Jesus didn’t say anything in the New Testament that countermanded the death penalty for homosexuality? IANAC, but as I recall Jesus had a few words for those who wanted to execute someone for violating the Levitical laws; [QUOTE=John 8:3-11] The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/24 "2015-04-28T19:22:48Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > That’s not to say that it’s shameful to be a Southerner. I’m one myself, and there’s much that I love about my state and its culture, and its beauty, and its people, and even its history. But if I want to show pride in where I’m from, I can fly the Texas flag any day. The Confederate flag is not Southern pride, it is Southern shame. And these idiots who insist otherwise make it a current shame, instead of a past one, like it should be. I don’t know. It’s hard for me to view the Dukes of Hazard as racist, even though they drive around in a Dodge Charger with a Rebel flag painted on the roof named after a Civil War general. I suppose Southerners view the Civil War the same way we might view Canada invading the US to enforce universal health care and a boring and highly regulatory stable banking system. Sure, it’s a good idea. But who are they to tell us what to do? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/25 "2015-04-28T19:43:00Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > Excellent detailed work in breaking apart that one sentence. > > Is it your contention then that Jesus didn’t say anything in the New Testament that countermanded the death penalty for homosexuality? Perhaps “Love thy neighbor as thyself”? No, I don’t agree that “Love thy neighbor as thyself,” can be read to countermand the prohibition against homosexual acts. It’s not specific – if it had the meaning you ascribe to it, it would countermand almost any punishment for almost any offense. Now, you can make a stronger case for suggesting that Jesus countermanded the death penalty, period, and I don’t necessarily disagree with that. But so far as I can tell, in this thread you’re the first to mention the death penalty – the OP merely discusses the Leviticus prohibition, and it’s in that context that my reply exists. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/26 "2015-04-28T19:43:31Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > What the hell is the difference? If someone is filled with hate, does it make a difference whether that hate comes from “sincerely held principles” or his warped upbringing, or what he ate for breakfast? Hate is hate, and religion is no excuse. That assumes he is filled with hate. That is the arrogance of the OP, that he is so obviously right that the only possible reason for disagreeing with him is irrational hate. One could hate gay people and be pro-gay marriage, one can love gay people and be anti-gay marriage. One can be entirely indifferent to gay people and have either view on gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/27 "2015-04-28T19:49:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > IANAC, but as I recall Jesus had a few words for those who wanted to execute someone for violating the Levitical laws; Sure. As per my immediately prior post, this suggests Jesus was eschewing the death sentence of Mosaic law in favor of mercy – but at the same time, he clearly agrees the woman had sinned, and he tells her to stop sinning. But the OP does not mention death, and is focused simply on the aspect of whether Leviticus _prohibits_ the eating of shellfish and also prohibits homosexual activity; he suggests that it’s inconsistent to continue prohibiting homosexual activity in obedience to god while enjoying tasty clams, mussels, and oysters. I pointed out to the OP that there is no inconsistency – that in the Gospel of Mark, Jesus rejects the prohibition against unclean food. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/28 "2015-04-28T19:57:26Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > That assumes he is filled with hate. That is the arrogance of the OP, that he is so obviously right that the only possible reason for disagreeing with him is irrational hate. One could hate gay people and be pro-gay marriage, one can love gay people and be anti-gay marriage. One can be entirely indifferent to gay people and have either view on gay marriage. How can you love gay people yet want to deny them rights? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/29 "2015-04-28T19:58:25Z")
Most people consider themselves or their side to be a force for good. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/30 "2015-04-28T19:59:27Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > How can you love gay people yet want to deny them rights? Should polygamous or incestuous marriage be allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/31 "2015-04-28T20:00:39Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > How can you love gay people yet want to deny them rights? I favor legal same-sex marriage. I don’t favor sloppy argument. So my answer to you is: “I love my son but I want to deny him the right to drive, vote, marry, and determine his own medical treatments.” At least for now – when he’s older, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/32 "2015-04-28T20:02:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Should polygamous or incestuous marriage be allowed? Sure, why not, as long as everyone is consenting? ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/33 "2015-04-28T20:03:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I favor legal same-sex marriage. > > I don’t favor sloppy argument. > > So my answer to you is: “I love my son but I want to deny him the right to drive, vote, marry, and determine his own medical treatments.” > > At least for now – when he’s older, not so much. Thanks for clearing that up. I am sure no one could have understood what I meant without this enlightening post. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/34 "2015-04-28T20:11:14Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Thanks for clearing that up. I am sure no one could have understood what I meant without this enlightening post. :rolleyes: I still don’t know what you meant. My post was intended to suggest that an opponent of same-sex marriage might believe that denying legal same-sex marriage rights to individuals was in the best interest of both society and those individuals. Your post seemed to be unaware of this possibility. Maybe you could clarify your point? It’s easy for me to imagine a same-sex marriage opponent who answers you as follows: “How can you love gay people yet want to deny them rights?” “It’s because I love them, and want to see them freed from sin, and want to see society not condone sin, that I seek to deny them rights.” Again, this is not a position I take, but I can easily imagine it. Your post seemed to indicate you can’t, or at least didn’t, imagine it. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/35 "2015-04-28T20:14:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I still don’t know what you meant. > > My post was intended to suggest that an opponent of same-sex marriage might believe that denying legal same-sex marriage rights to individuals was in the best interest of both society and those individuals. Your post seemed to be unaware of this possibility. > > Maybe you could clarify your point? It’s easy for me to imagine a same-sex marriage opponent who answers you as follows: > > “How can you love gay people yet want to deny them rights?” > > “It’s because I love them, and want to see them freed from sin, and want to see society not condone sin, that I seek to deny them rights.” > > Again, this is not a position I take, but I can easily imagine it. Your post seemed to indicate you can’t, or at least didn’t, imagine it. I am not going to get into a meaningless pissing contest with you. I believe my point is clear. If someone “loves gays” then he/she isn’t going to oppose equal rights for them. If you use religious bullshit in the “love the sinner, hate the sin” way, then that is not true “love” for people. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/36 "2015-04-28T20:17:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I still don’t know what you meant. > > My post was intended to suggest that an opponent of same-sex marriage might believe that denying legal same-sex marriage rights to individuals was in the best interest of both society and those individuals. Your post seemed to be unaware of this possibility. > > Maybe you could clarify your point? It’s easy for me to imagine a same-sex marriage opponent who answers you as follows: > > “How can you love gay people yet want to deny them rights?” > > “It’s because I love them, and want to see them freed from sin, and want to see society not condone sin, that I seek to deny them rights.” > > Again, this is not a position I take, but I can easily imagine it. Your post seemed to indicate you can’t, or at least didn’t, imagine it. If a person who loves gay people is treating gays in a manner that’s functionally indistinguishable from how someone who hates gay people would treat us, why should I give a shit that he “loves” me? Also, is there a part in the New Testament where Jesus say he’s cool with people wearing a shirt made from two different fibers? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/37 "2015-04-28T20:20:40Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > If someone “loves gays” then he/she isn’t going to oppose equal rights for them. If you use religious bullshit in the “love the sinner, hate the sin” way, then that is not true “love” for people. No True Scotsman. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/38 "2015-04-28T21:33:59Z")
I knew a Scotsman who ate lobster. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/39 "2015-04-28T21:50:04Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > “So,” I said, “what’s the deal with the Confederate flag?” > > “Hah?” said the guy with the truck. > > “Why are you flying a Confederate flag from the back of your truck?” I asked. “I mean, are you a Civil War recreationist, or what?” > > “Um… 'cuz I’m proud to be a Southerner,” he said. > > “So,” I asked, “the Confederate flag implies a Southern identity, and you identify with that, and you’re proud of it?” > > “Um… yeah. If you mean what I think you mean,” he said. > > “Are you aware that to a lot of black folks, the Confederate flag is a symbol of how half a nation was willing to go to war to keep the right to own black people?” I asked. > > “Huh?” > > I repeated myself. > > He thought about it for a minute. “Well, the hell with them,” he said. “It’s also about southern pride. And if anyone asks me, I’ll say so.” > > I did not necessarily agree with his reasoning, but I did respect his willingness to admit that he might be offending someone… and that he did not necessarily care. He didn’t lie, and he didn’t mince words. That’s worth something, these days. > > * * * > > “So,” I said, “do you want to KILL black people, or do you just want to run them off?” > > “Huh?” said the klansman. > > I repeated myself. > > “No, no, you’ve got it all wrong,” he said. “The Klan is about pride, first and foremost. We also feel that we should not be forced to live with people we don’t want to live with, regardless of race, creed, or color. We are against being forced by the government to share our communities with people we don’t wanna.” > > “Because you hate them.” > > “No,” he said. “We don’t necessarily HATE anyone. We just don’t feel we should be forced to live with them if we don’t want to.” > > “So… who’s forcing you to share your home with people you don’t want to?” > > “It’s not just housing. It’s communities. And schools. We are generally against racial and cultural mixing, is all, and we don’t feel it should be forced on us by the government. Let other people build their own communities, and stay with their own kind, or join communities that want them. Don’t force us to mix with them.” > > “And why the white robes and pointy mask things? Are you aware that black people in particular find this threatening and wildly offensive?” > > “We’re not threatening or trying to offend anyone. We’re just standing up for our rights.” > > “And the costumes?” > > “…tradition.” > > I didn’t have much respect for this guy. I felt like he was trying to snow me. You can’t wear a Klan outfit in a march with a bunch of other Klansmen through downtown Austin and tell me you’re not trying to offend or intimidate anyone. I might have had some respect if he’d just said, “Yeah, we hate anyone who ain’t white, and this is an effort to drum up enrollment and screw around with the black folks a little, tweak their noses. Ha, ha!” > > Lie to yourself if you want, but don’t piss in my face and then say, “It’s raining!” > > * * * > > Had several discussions lately about Teh Ghey. > > Gay folks seem to feel that they should have the same rights as anyone else. Legally speaking, it’s hard to argue against this, justly. If they have the same responsibilities as me, they should have the same rights… or at least, that’s my thinking. If they can’t get married or own property, well, that’s unjust. Maybe they shouldn’t have to pay taxes or something… but the politicians won’t go for that, so, fine, give them the same rights as anyone else. > > A lot of people are arguing against that mighty hard. And a lot of the arguments are kind of weird. > > “Gay marriage will destroy traditional marriage!” Yes, but no one seems to be able to tell me precisely how this will occur. > > “Gays should be suppressed because most of them are child molesters!” This one seems to be a case of cherrypicking your citations. Every proof I’ve seen of this comes from church groups or wingnut websites. The federal government and the shrinks’ organizations say it ain’t so. > > “BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO!!!” …and this one, well, can’t argue with faith. Tried bringing up the fact that Leviticus prohibits other things like shellfish and divorce, and ALLOWS slavery, but the churchy folks don’t care about that – it prohibits teh ghey, and God says it, and we believe it, and that settles it. Freedom of religion, and all that. No ghey, no ghey, no ghey. > > In short, “My religion gives me the right to discriminate, and I am GOING to discriminate, ACTIVELY, and be an ACTIVIST for withholding gay rights, and the hell with you anyway.” > > I think I’d respect it more if anyone had the guts to put it that way, but you don’t often hear that. I’ve tried pointing out how one interpretation of the Bible also says that black folks are the sons of Ham, who made fun of daddy Noah, and so God turned 'em black and made it okay to kick them around. For some reason, not a whole lot of churchy folks are willing to stand up for that interpretation, the way they did back in the early sixties. It ain’t fashionable now, for some reason. > > And when I bring it up, I am told, “No, no, not applicable. Totally different. NO parallels between keepin’ the blacks down (which was wrong, and we don’t do that any more) and keepin’ teh gheys down (which is necessary and justified by God’s Law). TOTALLY different thing.” > > No, it ain’t. It’s discrimination against human beings, period. Only difference is what you believe and what you don’t believe. It’d be the same if it were discrimination against brown skin, blue eyes, blond hair, or color of socks. Although, in all honesty, one can change one’s socks. Or hair color, for that matter. > > “Well, they have a choice. They can stop being gay,” I am told. And therein lies another can of worms. I’ve known some gay folks, is my problem. In particular, I have known some gay folks who took some MAJOR HEAT for being gay. You hear about teenagers killing themselves, because they’d rather be dead than gay, or because they simply cannot fade the heat any more. Does this sound like they could just quit bein’ gay? > > I don’t think so. And, therefore, I am told that I am not only wrong, but naive for my beliefs. To which, my response is “well, at least I went out and got my information from the source. How many gay people have YOU spoken to? How many gay folks have YOU gotten to know and understand as best you could?” > > Most churchy folks don’t do a lot of this. Perhaps teh ghey is catching, or something. I dunno. But I am a firm believer that you can’t really know much about a topic without going the hell out and immersing yourself in it. Reading up on it is one thing, but there is a hell of a difference between classroom and field. Perhaps some gay folks can suddenly undergo a conversion and be straight, but the vast majority seem unable to do so… and therefore would seem to have no choice but to be what they are. > > So… do me a favor, okay? If you’re this kind of person, just ADMIT it. “Yeah, I hate gays for bein’ gay. I believe they are evil, sinful, poisonous people, just for being what they are. I believe they should be suppressed, oppressed, repressed, and possibly gassed in death chambers. I am aware that in twenty or thirty years, they’ll just be ordinary people, protected by law, same as anyone else, and I will look like a hateful old bigot, but I gots my pride, and I won’t recant now. Maybe later, for the sake of not looking like a hateful old bastard in front of my grandchildren… but for now I got my pride.” > > I can’t say I agree with you, but I can at least respect someone who doesn’t lie to me. > > Or to themselves. This was a very brave thing to post. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685/40 "2015-04-28T21:59:00Z")
> [@Master\_Wang-Ka](#): > > If you’re this kind of person, just ADMIT it. “Yeah, I hate gays for bein’ gay. I believe they are evil, sinful, poisonous people, just for being what they are. I believe they should be suppressed, oppressed, repressed, and possibly gassed in death chambers. I am aware that in twenty or thirty years, they’ll just be ordinary people, protected by law, same as anyone else, and I will look like a hateful old bigot, but I gots my pride, and I won’t recant now. Maybe later, for the sake of not looking like a hateful old bastard in front of my grandchildren… but for now I got my pride.” Except that this a Straw Man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-pride-and-self-deception/718685.md?page=3)