# Hate Speech In Ali RIP Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 6, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654 "2016-06-06T14:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/61 "2016-06-09T04:45:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You claimed that he was told not to use a particular word anymore. He wasn’t told that. I don’t see how anyone can know with any reasonable amount of certainty that he was purposely looking for a quote with that word. Simple. They can read the thread for context. What purpose does his comment serve other than to say “Ali called himself a nigger, so what’s wrong with me hating him?” He’s already coming into the thread to attack the dead–which already shows he’s posting to be a jerk. He then gets smarmy with Frank. And he just happens to use “nigger”? You know, a word that’s not even unusual for a black person to use about themselves? Not a quote that makes sense, like something about how white people are bad. Or perhaps some quote where he brags a lot, so he can call him smarmy. Just plugging in a “nigger” quote that makes no sense. Now, maybe if that was it, you could think it was coincidence. But then you bring in the rest of the quote and the posting history, and it becomes far more likely he used the word to rile people up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/62 "2016-06-09T06:10:16Z")
Bullshit. Nothing is that “simple”. If he hadn’t been told not to use that word, then the mods shouldn’t be basing a warning on mind reading abilities. Give him a mod note not to use that word going forward, then if he does again you don’t need to be The Amazing Kreskin to give him a warning. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/63 "2016-06-09T13:41:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bullshit. Nothing is that “simple”. If he hadn’t been told not to use that word, then the mods shouldn’t be basing a warning on mind reading abilities. Give him a mod note not to use that word going forward, then if he does again you don’t need to be The Amazing Kreskin to give him a warning. Sorry, trolls love gaming specific rules. You defeat that by moderating against intent, based on patterns and history. The mods are completely right to not give trolls bright lines to limbo under. You cut their feet out from under them for trollish intent and pattern of activity, and if the troll wants to become a responsible citizen and needs significant time and effort to restore trust, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/64 "2016-06-09T13:52:02Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Classic [FOAF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend). No, it’s not. FOAF refers to a story people allege happened to a “friend of a friend”. In this case, I specifically said - and you quoted - that “ **the guy told me he heard it himself** and he wouldn’t lie about it” (emphasis added). Possibly you’re confused by the words “heard it” to indicate that he heard the incident from someone else. But that’s not the case. We happen to be discussing an interview that Ali gave, and “heard it” means personally heard that interview. And since, as it turns out, there is other evidence that Ali expressed the exact sentiments that this person said he heard, and it also turns out that Ali used the term “nigger” when discussing other people’s perceptions of himself and his mouth, the story turns out to have been unremarkable and there’s no reason to grasp at straws in an effort to deny it having happened. [FWIW, I later recalled another thing this same guy told me he heard from Ali. He was asked whether, if he defeated Larry Holmes, he would then fight Gerry Cooney. He responded “Gerry Cooney? Blast him to the mooney!” My friend was not a big boxing fan so it’s likely these were from the same interview.] ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/65 "2016-06-09T13:57:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Simple. They can read the thread for context. What purpose does his comment serve other than to say “Ali called himself a nigger, so what’s wrong with me hating him?” The context was his claim that people disliked Ali because of his loud mouth. The Ali quote (if true) validated that. [That particular quote may or may not be accurate, but I’ve posted several links in which Ali effectively said the same thing (as L-P’s point in the other thread).] ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/66 "2016-06-09T16:38:08Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Sorry, trolls love gaming specific rules. You defeat that by moderating against intent, based on patterns and history. > > The mods are completely right to not give trolls bright lines to limbo under. You cut their feet out from under them for trollish intent and pattern of activity, and if the troll wants to become a responsible citizen and needs significant time and effort to restore trust, so be it. There is a difference between “bright lines” and “arbitrary application of vague rules based on personal distaste which will be immediately disavowed as soon as called on it.” Moderating against intent? Yeah, that’s a good idea not at all subject to abuse and knee-jerkery. In fact, I love the idea that anyone who maintains an unpopular opinion can be castigated and silenced merely by the use of the word “troll.” It has a sort of familiar [ring to it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3dbd2YyeN0). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/67 "2016-06-09T17:15:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [FWIW, I later recalled another thing this same guy told me he heard from Ali. He was asked whether, if he defeated Larry Holmes, he would then fight Gerry Cooney. He responded “Gerry Cooney? Blast him to the mooney!” My friend was not a big boxing fan so it’s likely these were from the same interview.] FWIW, your friend seems to be quoting from an Ali interview I can’t find any record of. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/68 "2016-06-09T17:42:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No, it’s not. > > FOAF refers to a story people allege happened to a “friend of a friend”. In this case, I specifically said - and you quoted - that “ **the guy told me he heard it himself** and he wouldn’t lie about it” (emphasis added). > > Possibly you’re confused by the words “heard it” to indicate that he heard the incident from someone else. But that’s not the case. We happen to be discussing an interview that Ali gave, and “heard it” means personally heard that interview. Fuck’s sake, read some Brunvand. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/69 "2016-06-09T20:29:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > FWIW, your friend seems to be quoting from an Ali interview I can’t find any record of. Nor can I. But what percentage of Ali’s interviews do you think we can find record of? > [@andros](#): > > Fuck’s sake, read some Brunvand. :rolleyes: Understanding what you’re reading is more important than just reading. I would advise you to concentrate on the first rather than the second. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/70 "2016-06-09T20:51:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Nor can I. But what percentage of Ali’s interviews do you think we can find record of? Not too damn many would be hidden from us-the man was a quote mine, and any interviews he did were pretty well publicized. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/71 "2016-06-09T21:16:38Z")
OK. I highly doubt if that’s true. Like any major athlete, the guy was interviewed probably hundreds, maybe thousands of times. If, for example, in the course of promoting his upcoming Holmes fight he gave some press conference, or appeared on some radio show, I doubt if you’d be able to find record - let alone a transcript - today. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/72 "2016-06-09T21:33:52Z")
Gosh, the scandal of it all. Moderating ‘Intent’ rather than spending months twisting our panties over interpretations of warnings and loopholes. _The horror… the horror…_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/73 "2016-06-09T21:35:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK. I highly doubt if that’s true. Like any major athlete, the guy was interviewed probably hundreds, maybe thousands of times. If, for example, in the course of promoting his upcoming Holmes fight he gave some press conference, or appeared on some radio show, I doubt if you’d be able to find record - let alone a transcript - today. So your anonymous friend has got some unverifiable quotes from an unknown interview. Excuse me for harboring the slightest bit of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/74 "2016-06-09T21:45:00Z")
Rest assured, you’re completely excused. In fact, I might almost go so far as to say that I don’t care altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/75 "2016-06-09T22:13:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [I have no idea if L\_P’s quote is accurate. What I can say is that years ago (when Ali was still active) a friend of mine told me he had seen/heard an interview with Ali. Ali was making the point that a lot of his act was showmanship, and he said that he said a lot of outrageous things so that people will “come out to see the talkin’ nigger fight”.] 1. You agree that your anecdote, if true, has limited bearing on the accuracy of L\_P’s quote. 2. I was dubious about the idea of your friend hearing such a curse word on TV or radio. I reverse that dubiousness given evidence upthread. 3. I’ve seen an interview with Ali indicating that, yes, a lot of what he did was showmanship. I doubt whether any biographer would disagree that he had that sort of self-knowledge. The interview also indicated that Ali was also psyching himself up for the fight. Here’s the (1974) interview. It was with Al Funk of Candid Camera. Ali didn’t know the cameras were rolling: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNLqh6-dRyQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNLqh6-dRyQ) 4:10: Ali specifically uses the word showmanship. Also “Imagination”. 5:00: Does Ali really believe he’s the greatest? 6:50: To Al Funk: “Don’t you believe you’re the greatest TV man of all time?” ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/76 "2016-06-09T22:14:51Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I think that was his point. The term has been watered down to the point of uselessness. > > Nerd = hate speech against trekkies and bookworms > Jock = hate speech against athletes > etc. Nigger = hate speech against blacks. Fucking crazy town, I tell you. What’s next, **Zeke** , what’s next?! Jesus christ. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/77 "2016-06-09T23:22:11Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Nigger = hate speech against blacks. > > Fucking crazy town, I tell you. What’s next, **Zeke** , what’s next?! > > Jesus christ. I’m going to assume that you are taking the piss or got whooshed because you seem to be functional. Benefit of the doubt and all that. The term hate speech is being watered down and is losing it’s significance because of it. But if you really think that I consider Nerd to be hate speech then brother step over to the kiddies table and talk about play-doh or something. As to it being hate speech by definition, I suppose that one should ask the countless black folks that use the term to refer both to intimates and to describe people they dislike. “I love black people but I hate niggers.” \<— Chris Rock. Now is that hate speech? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/78 "2016-06-10T01:24:54Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > . . . Al Funk of Candid Camera. . . . Funt. (He had a close relative who produced Fandid Famera.) ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/79 "2016-06-10T05:51:25Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > “I love black people but I hate niggers.” \<— Chris Rock. Now is that hate speech? If you were **someone the mods had modded for racist tone posts before** , then yes… I would mod you for **using that quote if you brought it up as a thread shit in a topic**. I’d probably mod it as “trolling”, as I’ve done in this situation. Note the two sections I’ve bolded. Both of those would have to be the case, not just one. Both. If only one was the case, I would not warn…but since both were the case this time, I gave a warning and I would in your example too if the circumstances were the same. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654/80 "2016-06-10T14:56:23Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. You agree that your anecdote, if true, has limited bearing on the accuracy of L\_P’s quote. I think it has bearing on the likelihood of that quote being accurate. If someone says “so-and-so said X” and others are skeptical, then finding another example of so-and-so expressing the same basic sentiment as X has a bearing on the likelihood of the first quote being accurate. [Remember, the context of L\_P’s citation of this quote was his attempt to back up his assertion that people disliked Ali because of his mouth and wanted to see him lose and shut up.] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-in-ali-rip-thread/756654.md?page=5)