# Hate speech - Jews vs. Gays **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 17, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606 "2000-11-17T16:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/41 "2000-11-27T00:04:27Z")
I don’t think it’s about saying that say, the Orthodox Jew is acceptable. It’s more like saying it’s NOT acceptable to be a Christian. That’s not right. (Just as if they said it wouldn’t be right to be Hindu, or Buddhist or Muslim.) ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/42 "2000-11-27T01:00:58Z")
Zev what he is saying is no religion should be acceptable:) or non religion for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/43 "2000-11-27T01:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > \*\*Zev what he is saying is no religion should be acceptable:) or non religion for that matter. \*\* You know, there’s a differemce between “acceptable” and “accepted”. You can speak out against Christianity being the _accepted_ religion, but can you say it’s not OK to be Christian? Or gay? Or black? An infinite number of contradictory ideas can be _accepteable_. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/44 "2000-11-27T02:18:54Z")
Of course you can say it’s acceptable not to be Christian. Or Jewish. Or what have you. Just that’s it’s wrong to say it’s WRONG to be _insert religion here_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/45 "2000-11-27T02:48:09Z")
Just remember - Non-Christian does not mean anti-Christian. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/46 "2000-11-27T02:50:34Z")
OK. So, if the public schools say that my lifestyle (as an Orthodox Jew) is acceptable, why does that scare you? Should they only teach a Christian lifestyle as an acceptable one? Zev Steinhardt \*\* [/QUOTE] Zev, you didn’t read my response to you if you think I am saying that it is acceptable for schools to teach that Judaism is wrong. I do not think it is the place for public schools to interfere with matters of religion. The fact that you are an Orthodox Jew does not scare me at all. As a matter of fact, I admire Jewish people, and to be quite honest, I’m a little jealous that you are the chosen people. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/47 "2000-11-27T02:54:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Of course you can say it’s acceptable not to be Christian. Or Jewish. Or what have you. > > Just that’s it’s wrong to say it’s WRONG to be _insert religion here_. > \*\* I couldn’t have said it better Guinastasia! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/48 "2000-11-27T04:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > > Zev, you didn’t read my response to you if you think I am saying that it is acceptable for schools to teach that Judaism is wrong. \*\* **JerseyDiamond** After relooking at your original post and re-reading it, it does look like I did take your response in the wrong light, **JerseyDiamond**. I offer my sincere apologies and extend to you my welcome to the SDMB! 🙂 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/49 "2000-11-27T11:30:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > > I don’t think that public schools should push any beliefs onto young and impressionable children. > I think that it is the parents responsibility to show their children what they believe is right. > I simply do not like the idea of a school teaching what is and isn’t acceptable in regards to religion. > \*\* Why are the parents any better of a source? I mean PARENTS DO NOT OWN THEIR KIDS, and thus do not have the right to brainwash them, either. The public schools have SOME right to teach what is right or wrong- they are run by a democratically selected group of folks, who are at least responsible to the voters & taxpayers- and since up taxpayers are paying for these kids educations, we DO have some right as to what they are taught. Now, public schools should not teach any one credo or faith, yes, but they can teach that murder, rape, genocide, slavery, et al is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/50 "2000-11-27T12:01:48Z")
Speaking of public schools teaching about what is right and wrong, how’s [this](http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisStory=83010046) for a shining example? My brother e-mailed me this link because my daughter attends Saint Cloud **State** University and I am working there as a temp. I intend to ask a few questions today, although I must say that the office I work in, Graduate Studies, has a very good attitude about diversity, and there are many different peoples represented in both the graduate faculty and student body (as distinguished from undergraduate). ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/51 "2000-11-27T17:05:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **JerseyDiamond** _ > > I don’t think he is scared of homosexuality, I think he just wants to follow the laws of GOD. So, in your opinion, would teaching that homosexuality is acceptable be pushing one religious belief on someone? I agree that stating any one religion is better than another is wrong, and that teaching _any_ religion in public school is wrong, but are you equating teaching tolerance for differences to teaching religious beliefs? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/52 "2000-11-27T17:28:58Z")
After relooking at your original post and re-reading it, it does look like I did take your response in the wrong light, **JerseyDiamond**. I offer my sincere apologies and extend to you my welcome to the SDMB! 🙂 Zev Steinhardt \*\* [/QUOTE] No problem Zev, and thank you for the welcome! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/53 "2000-11-27T18:15:24Z")
So, in your opinion, would teaching that homosexuality is acceptable be pushing one religious belief on someone? I agree that stating any one religion is better than another is wrong, and that teaching _any_ religion in public school is wrong, but are you equating teaching tolerance for differences to teaching religious beliefs? Esprix \*\* [/QUOTE] If someone chooses to do something because thats what they feel is right, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. What we should teach our children is that they should obey their parents, and at least respect what they believe. When they are of age, they now can decide for themselves what is right or wrong. If we shouldn’t teach that any one religion is right or wrong, I do not think we should teach that homosexuality is right or wrong. That is a personal choice that one makes regardless of what anyone else thinks. I my religion, we do not believe that homosexuality is acceptable, but that does not mean that we would disrespect that person. Don’t you think there is enough chaos with religion and homosexuality? Why make it worse by teaching this is right or this is wrong, you know what I mean?! I think people generally know that homosexuality is accepted in society. We should just make it known that people have choices, and whatever they choose, we will accept them as fellow human beings. To me it doesn’t matter what you are, as long as your good to me. I hope I answered your question. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/54 "2000-11-27T18:33:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > > > > I don’t think that public schools should push any beliefs onto young and impressionable children. > > I think that it is the parents responsibility to show their children what they believe is right. > > I simply do not like the idea of a school teaching what is and isn’t acceptable in regards to religion. > > \*\* > > Why are the parents any better of a source? I mean PARENTS DO NOT OWN THEIR KIDS, and thus do not have the right to brainwash them, either. The public schools have SOME right to teach what is right or wrong- they are run by a democratically selected group of folks, who are at least responsible to the voters & taxpayers- and since up taxpayers are paying for these kids educations, we DO have some right as to what they are taught. Now, public schools should not teach any one credo or faith, yes, but they can teach that murder, rape, genocide, slavery, et al is wrong. \*\* The only things that public schools should be teaching is: MATH, READING, HISTORY, ETC. The reason parents are a better source is because THEY ARE THE CHILDRENS PARENTS! Unless the government is going to provide for me and my family, they can stay out of what I teach my children. If it is something that is bringing them physical harm, (and I do not mean spanking) or hurting anyone outside of the home, then I think that the authorities should step in. Not all people are capable of being suitable parents as we see on the news many nights, but that doesn’t mean that we are all incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/55 "2000-11-27T19:09:47Z")
**JerseyDiamond:** _Unless the government is going to provide for me and my family, they can stay out of what I teach my children._ Actually, the government provides plenty of stuff for you and your family. National defense, highways, food and drug safety certification, occupational safety protections, transportation safety protections, pollution control, and national wilderness and recreation areas, to name but a few. In return for this, I think the government has a perfect right to teach your children the basic principles of good citizenship, in addition to “MATH, READING, HISTORY”, and other academic subjects (including human reproduction and modern biology, just to stir up the pot a little more :)). ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/56 "2000-11-27T19:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **JerseyDiamond** _ > > If someone chooses to do something because thats what they feel is right, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. Sure it does, especially when they discriminate against you, harass you, deny you equal rights, murder you… I’d say someone else’s opinion about what I do is fairly important. (YMMV, of course.) > [@](#): > > If we shouldn’t teach that any one religion is right or wrong, I do not think we should teach that homosexuality is right or wrong. So homosexuality is solely a religious issue? > [@](#): > > Don’t you think there is enough chaos with religion and homosexuality? Why make it worse by teaching this is right or this is wrong, you know what I mean?! No, I don’t - please feel free to expound. > [@](#): > > I think people generally know that homosexuality is accepted in society. Suddenly I’m reminded of that old chestnut from _South Pacific_, “You’ve Got To Be Carefully Taught.” I seriously doubt kids in their formative years have much knowledge of the great scope of society - they only know what they’re taught until they are of an age where they get to experience society on their own, at which point they start to form their own opinions. > [@](#): > > We should just make it known that people have choices, and whatever they choose, we will accept them as fellow human beings. So a general “like everybody” approach would be effective, without naming specific societal problems (i.e., racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc.)? Certainly by addressing these issues, even if you consider them solely problems of the past, we can help avoid their resurgence in the future, namely by teaching the tolerance you advocate? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/57 "2000-11-27T23:16:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\ ***JerseyDiamond:** _Unless the government is going to provide for me and my family, they can stay out of what I teach my children._ > > Actually, the government provides plenty of stuff for you and your family. National defense, highways, food and drug safety certification, occupational safety protections, transportation safety protections, pollution control, and national wilderness and recreation areas, to name but a few. In return for this, I think the government has a perfect right to teach your children the basic principles of good citizenship, in addition to “MATH, READING, HISTORY”, and other academic subjects (including human reproduction and modern biology, just to stir up the pot a little more :)). \*\* My TAXES and your TAXES pay for the above listed. So, being that we pay for this stuff, I do not think the government have the right to interfere with the way I raise my family. Does being a good citizen have anything to do with being religious or being a homosexual? I think that there are plenty of religious, non-religious, and homosexual people that are great citizens, wouldn’t you agree? So I don’t think it’s relevant. I have no problem with the teaching of being a good citizen. Modern biology and human reproduction was part of my ‘etc’. ( SCIENCE ) Sorry I wasn’t more clear. This doesn’t mean that they have to encourage or discourage heterosexuality or homosexuality, it simply explains how to reproduce, and what happens during conception. I am not a biology teacher, so forgive me if I didn’t explain it thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/58 "2000-11-28T00:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by **JerseyDiamond** _ > > > > If someone chooses to do something because thats what they feel is right, it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. > > Sure it does, especially when they discriminate against you, harass you, deny you equal rights, murder you… I’d say someone else’s opinion about what I do is fairly important. (YMMV, of course.) > > As you know, people can be very unfair. This is a part of life. All we can do is live our lives as we choose and hope for the best. We just need to be careful, and realize that we cannot please everyone. > > > [@](#): > > > > If we shouldn’t teach that any one religion is right or wrong, I do not think we should teach that homosexuality is right or wrong. > > So homosexuality is solely a religious issue? > > Being that different religions have different views on homosexuality, it is partly a religious issue. It is difficult for me not to see it religiously because I am a christian. I think it should be known that homosexuality exists, but because it may offend people due to their religion, it should be limited just like religion is in the public school system. > > > [@](#): > > > > Don’t you think there is enough chaos with religion and homosexuality? Why make it worse by teaching this is right or this is wrong, you know what I mean?! > > No, I don’t - please feel free to expound. > > You yourself said that people discriminate against you, harass you, deny you equal rights, and murder others because of these issues. > If teachers tell to their students that it is ok to be homosexual, and the child takes that information back to their Christian or Jewish families,( with many others I left out ) I think they would have a big problem with that, and there would be more bad out of the situation than good. > I don’t think the teachers opinion on religion or sexuality should be given to the children they teach, just the facts. > > > [@](#): > > > > I think people generally know that homosexuality is accepted in society. > > Suddenly I’m reminded of that old chestnut from _South Pacific_, “You’ve Got To Be Carefully Taught.” I seriously doubt kids in their formative years have much knowledge of the great scope of society - they only know what they’re taught until they are of an age where they get to experience society on their own, at which point they start to form their own opinions. > > I agree. > > > [@](#): > > > > We should just make it known that people have choices, and whatever they choose, we will accept them as fellow human beings. > > So a general “like everybody” approach would be effective, without naming specific societal problems (i.e., racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc.)? Certainly by addressing these issues, even if you consider them solely problems of the past, we can help avoid their resurgence in the future, namely by teaching the tolerance you advocate? > > Esprix \*\* I can’t stress enough how important a role a parent has on their children. It all begins at home. All the things you listed are for the most part, products of poor parenting or taught discrimination. I love all races, and all religions, no matter what you believe. We need to teach that discrimination in any situation is wrong. we need to teach that because someone is different: Jewish, Christian, Hindu, atheist, black, white, or WHATEVER, it does’t mean they are a bad person. But we do not need to push beliefs onto people, cause it will only make more problems. I believe that GOD will make himself known to everyone, if they choose to acknowlegde him or accept him is their own choice. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/59 "2000-11-28T00:21:48Z")
SORRY IF THE LAST REPLY I GAVE WAS CONFUSING, I AM STILL NEW AT THIS. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/60 "2000-11-28T01:49:04Z")
**JerseyDiamond** : \*We need to teach that discrimination in any situation is wrong. we need to teach that because someone is different: Jewish, Christian, Hindu, atheist, black, white, or WHATEVER, it does’t mean they are a bad person. \* Couldn’t agree with you more. Tell it, **JD**!! _But we do not need to push beliefs onto people, cause it will only make more problems._ Um, but that wonderful attitude you just described, and which I thoroughly support, is **also** a belief, and one which many people don’t share. Like it or not, we have to accept that our tax-funded government (in which, btw, very very few of us actually pay our “full share” of the costs of what we use) **is** in the business of “pushing beliefs onto people”, and we have to deal with the responsibility of selecting which beliefs they should push, and why. I think that the belief that we should respect all people’s backgrounds and personal convictions and not discriminate against them on that account (as per the Constitution) is a very good one and well worth pushing onto as many people as possible. But we can’t pretend that it’s somehow morally neutral or that it doesn’t count as a “belief.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606.md?page=4)