# Hate speech - Jews vs. Gays **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 17, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606 "2000-11-17T16:33:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/81 "2000-11-30T15:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **DocCathode** _ > > It seems to me that there is something that has taught children tolerance of others without being specific. I’m sure that you’re all familiar with Sesame Street. While there are occasional shows that teach us to accept people with disabilities or different colored skin, most of the time the message is not to hate or judge anyone just because they are different. Excellent point, and shows like “Sesame Street” are good building blocks for teaching tolerance. However, as children age, their reasoning skills sharpen, while at the same time education takes on new roles in their development. There comes a point where kids stop thinking in such black and white and start questioning those shades of gray (“Tommy acts kind of girly, and my parents told me not to hang around with him anymore, but he’s my best friend and I don’t care how he acts.”) There comes a point in a child’s education when we must directly address their more and more pointed questions; in effect, we must teach them as “little adults” rather than “big kids.” > [@](#): > > Some of the posters have sarcastically asked if the Christians involved in this thread want evolution banned from schools. In several states it has been. In Kansas(source on this is The Philadelphia Inquirer. It is the respected, main stream paper for this area.) it is illegal to teach evolution in public schools. Assuming this is true (and it wouldn’t surprise me), hasn’t the Christian community then imposed its religious will on the children in those schools, putting beliefs ahead of scientific research? Isn’t this _exactly_ what **JerseyDiamond** is against? > [@](#): > > I think it’s impossible not to teach values. In history class, we learn that slavery is wrong. This is a value I share but it’s still a value. Almost any literature also teaches a value of some kind. No argument there. The choice remains what values we, as a society, wish to impart on our youth, and I don’t think that particular back-and-forth will ever be settled. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/82 "2000-11-30T15:20:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Polycarp** _ > > 'Sprix, would you be offended if a Christian person, say Navigator to pick a name, said that he had no problem with you **being** who you are, but feels that your _sex life_ is sinful – and is quick to add that he’s not isolating you as a gay person, but would say the same thing to _anybody_ who had sex outside marriage? This has been discussed before. I find the attitude to be repugnant, demeaning, insulting and holier-than-thou. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” is the biggest cop-out the Christian community has ever imparted on this country, IMHO. If you (not you ;)) don’t like what I do, it doesn’t give you some right to tell me it’s _wrong_ - I really couldn’t care less, as you’re not living my life and I’m not living yours. I don’t tell you it’s wrong to believe what you believe (as repugnant as I find it), don’t tell me it’s wrong to do what I do. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/83 "2000-11-30T15:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Ptahlis** _ > > Can a Christian practice tolerance and still condemn homosexuals? Can a Christian practice tolerance and let other Christians suppress teaching tolerance? Ooo, poingant questions! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/84 "2000-11-30T15:42:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Joe\_Cool** _ > > What a coincidence that you should say this. Would that be similar to getting your panties all in a twist because Cecil made a [thilly queen](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=45448) joke? You claim that your only complaint is that the joke wasn’t funny, but strangely enough I’ve seen a number of unfunny jokes, but the only one I’ve seen you complain about is that one. [/quote] I certainly hope you see the difference between teaching tolerance of gays and lesbians to school kids and **Cecil** ’s purile (and borderline offensive) attempt at humor. > [@](#): > > You’re right. Some people get all upset whenever homosexuality is mentioned. And you’re it. I’ll respond to this in the aforelinked thread. Esprix\*-+ ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/85 "2000-11-30T17:46:49Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*Also check out his blueprint for how “Christians should govern America”, [Day One](http://www.enyart.com/writings/dayone.html). > > \*\* Has anybody read this? It’s amazing. It like…1984 if it were written by O’Brian. A fanatical Christian group takes over the government in the middle of the night (through a perfectly legitimate election, held at 3:00 AM, and electing a candidate no one has ever heard of before),kicks out the foreign press, suspends questioning of government policy by our press, bans lethal injection on the ground that it’s not painful enough, orders the execution of anyone who SPEAKS in favor of abortion…and this is a GOOD THING. This is this guy’s HOPE for the country. And it’s Day One. At the end it says “If you enjoyed Day One, you’ll love Day Two.” No doubt. Ok, I’m sure he doesn’t have a huge following but even a small group fantasizing about stuff like this is disturbing. ``` [/hijack] ``` ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/86 "2000-11-30T18:08:29Z")
**Jersey Diamond** wrote: > [@](#): > > You’re missing the point. I’m trying to say that condemning homosexuals is judging people, which is wrong and is condemned in the bible. Condemning homosexuality is judging people’s actions, which is acceptable (as long as you’re not being hateful or hostile toward the person himself) and is commanded in the bible. Cite, please. My understanding is that the Christian is to preach the Good News, make disciples of all who will listen, etc. He is never to judge another, or another’s actions, in his role as a Christian. (He may find himself in a specific role which calls for judgment, as for example a teacher, a person evaluating for a license, a judge of a court, etc.) The one quasi-judicial role he is permitted as a Christian is to point out the errors his brother or sister in Christ might appear to be making (as I am doing here) with an eye to enabling him/her to see that error (if error it be) and reform his/her ways accordingly. I know of no cite which permits, much less commands Christians to judge the actions of others. **Ptahlis** : > [@](#): > > Well, considering that most of the same people who feel this way will also specifically deny him the opportunity to marry the person of his choice, how is this supposed to make him feel any better? In all practical terms it’s saying “You’re fine, as long as you never, ever have any sex. God has reserved romantic love and sexual congress for heterosexuals only.” True. I approve of gay marriages, myself. Of course, I don’t hold with that condemnation either. But I’m by no means a typical Christian (though far more believe as I do than are publicly evident – it’s not “news” the way Jerry Falwell’s latest fulmination is. **Ptahlis** again: [/quote] Can a Christian practice tolerance and still condemn homosexuals? Can a Christian practice tolerance and let other Christians suppress teaching tolerance? [/quote] To which Esprix commented: > [@](#): > > Ooo, poingant questions! Poignant, too. [Poly visualizes soft rubber question marks from a toddler’s foam alphabet set bounding across the countryside going “poing, poing, poing.”] 😃 Of course the answer is no to both questions. The point, though, is that Christians are not necessarily supposed to be “tolerant” (at least on the conservative perspective), but rather downright **in** tolerant of evil. And by that confusion of orientation, behavior, and “lifestyle” (yuk!) that I mentioned above, the whole schmear becomes evil on this point of view, and the people with it. Jersey is trying to draw the distinction between person and action that is the first step towards getting it right. But he’s still operating (IMHO) from a legalistic perspective. And Paul, of all people, is the first one to condemn such a perspective. I’m going to go over to the “How can homosexuality be a sin?” thread to deal with the rest of this. “Now, Miss Piggy, this is the melody to ‘Twinkle, twinkle little star…’” ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2000, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606/87 "2000-11-30T21:56:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Of course the answer is no to both questions. The point, though, is that Christians are not necessarily supposed to be “tolerant” (at least on the conservative perspective), but rather downright **in** tolerant of evil. And by that confusion of orientation, behavior, and “lifestyle” (yuk!) that I mentioned above, the whole schmear becomes evil on this point of view, and the people with it. > \*\* Okay. But how does one balance “intolerance toward evil” with “love thy neighbor as thyself?” It seems that one requires tolerance of homosexuals and support for their struggle against prejudice despite one’s disagreement with their sex lives, while the other demands that Christians speak out against them, thereby increasing said prejudice. Which aspect of God takes precedence, his love for mankind or his condemnation of sin? A lot of folks seem to resolve this tension by just keeping mum and neither supporting nor denouncing the gay community in their attempt to remove prejudice. The vocal minority of Christians who actively oppose things like sex ed, teaching evolution, and gay rights, claim that they are acting as agents of God, and they also _appear_ to have the tacit approval of the bulk of the silent Christian community. (I’m not talking about the really extreme elements like Fred Phelps mind you, just the “mainstream fundamentalists”.) This is one of the problems I have with the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument. Not that it necessarily directly impinges on any of the above issues, but that it allows a Christian who espouses it an illusory escape hatch from the tolerance/condemnation dichotomy. It effectively releases the Christian from the onus of taking a side in the matter, and that silence looks an awful lot like tacit support. By the way Poly, I know where you stand on these issues, and we’re on the same side with regards to the gay rights issue. But you have shown willingness to defend the “hate the sin; love the sinner” viewpoint before. It interests me to see that there are so many more fundamentalists weighing in on the side of condemnation compared to the liberal Christians willing to speak up in defense of the above issues. Perhaps it is my own selective perception, or perhaps the media simply ignores a large contingent of tolerant Christian activists, perhaps both. In any case, I see a real imbalance in the numbers of those on either side. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-jews-vs-gays/41606.md?page=4)