# Hate speech laws. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881 "2012-12-22T23:49:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/61 "2012-12-23T17:09:08Z")
**elbows** , you aren’t claiming that hate-speech laws prevent your politicians from lying? Surely most lies are outside the terms of the laws. And conversely, isn’t most “hate speech” unverifiable either way–religious doctrine, unsettled quasi-science, and simple opinion? It’s hard to see gow a standard of _truth_ could be applied in most cases. (What country is this, anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/62 "2012-12-23T18:35:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, history was quite the bloodbath. But your suggestion that religion was not a driving force is flawed. It was the emotional fuel that drove many of the battles. Which means only that Muslims are as bad as Christians, once in a while, not that there is something intrinsically evil about Islam. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/63 "2012-12-23T19:03:21Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > …Islam was created to be an instrument of Arab imperialism. Once you understand that fact, you have pretty much grasped the essence of Islam. The concept “Arab” hardly existed in Mohammed’s time. There were families, clans and tribes, and that was pretty much it. The ordinary “Arab” had little if any notion of a world outside his desert home, much less any fervent desire to subjugate. Mostly, he wanted more goats. There is no “essence” of Islam to grasp, it is a slice of people, some gifted with divine aspirations, some little more than authoritarian bullies. They are not better people, they are not worse. All that is worthy and noble in people, you find among them. All that is base and repulsive, you find as well. You have grasped nothing, there never was anything to grasp. Personally, I have more solid and certain reasons to despise Islam, they invented algebra, and made my sophomore year a dreary exercise in futility. May the sweet Baby Jesus shut your mouth and open your mind. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/64 "2012-12-23T23:38:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think the US has got itself in an unfortunate position where they have all the exceptions that I listed, and others, yet still perceive free speech as being unlimited therefore hate speech must be allowed. Exactly. I always get slightly confused when Americans go on about their free speech and how elsewhere we don’t have it and are somehow wrong. Everywhere limits speech, including the US. The only difference is where you choose to draw the line. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/65 "2012-12-23T23:53:54Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > What’s so interesting about my join date?. I won’t say anything more about that because I don’t think I could answer honestly outside of the Pit without giving Marley and/or Tom a headache. Instead, I’ll decide to just assume I made a mistake and withdraw the comment. > [@](#): > > As you rightly point out, Pagans were not given any sort of toleration under Islam. Yes, and Pagans were treated as badly in ancient Israel and medieval Europe. Moreover, in the Medieval Muslim world, the Muslims did tolerate and give Dhimmi status(which entitled them to protection) to a number of groups that didn’t follow the God of Abraham, most notably the Zoroastrians, but also the Yazidis and others. The same certainly didn’t happen in Christian Europe. > [@](#): > > Women, too, have had a hard time of it. That’s an extremely odd comment coming from someone trying to claim that Christianity and the Bible aren’t as bad as either Islam or the Quran. Yes, the Quran and traditional Islam are quite sexist, but women were actually accorded more rights under traditional Islam than either traditional Christianity or traditional Judaism. In fact, Bernard Lewis, arguably the foremost living scholar on the Medieval Islamic world and someone who can hardly be described as an apologist for Islam, pointed out that many Christian and Jewish community leaders often complained about how many Jewish and Christian women were “converting” to Islam right before getting divorced because Islam was far more favorable to divorced women. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/66 "2012-12-23T23:58:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I won’t say anything more about that because I don’t think I could answer honestly outside of the Pit without giving Marley and/or Tom a headache. > > Instead, I’ll decide to just assume I made a mistake and withdraw the comment. > > Yes, and Pagans were treated as badly in ancient Israel and medieval Europe. > > Moreover, in the Medieval Muslim world, the Muslims did tolerate and give Dhimmi status(which entitled them to protection) to a number of groups that didn’t follow the God of Abraham, most notably the Zoroastrians, but also the Yazidis and others. > > The same certainly didn’t happen in Christian Europe. > > That’s an extremely odd comment coming from someone trying to claim that Christianity and the Bible aren’t as bad as either Islam or the Quran. > > Yes, the Quran and traditional Islam are quite sexist, but women were actually accorded more rights under traditional Islam than either traditional Christianity or traditional Judaism. > > In fact, Bernard Lewis, arguably the foremost living scholar on the Medieval Islamic world and someone who can hardly be described as an apologist for Islam, pointed out that many Christian and Jewish community leaders often complained about how many Jewish and Christian women were “converting” to Islam right before getting divorced because Islam was far more favorable to divorced women. The difference is that Europe evolved, and medieval practices like that were done away with. But because Islam is so dependent on the Koran, it hasn’t. Christianity was never as dependent on the Bible as Islam is on the Koran, which it elevates almost to the status of godhood itself. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/67 "2012-12-24T00:21:29Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > The difference is that Europe evolved, and medieval practices like that were done away with. But because Islam is so dependent on the Koran, it hasn’t. Christianity was never as dependent on the Bible as Islam is on the Koran, which it elevates almost to the status of godhood itself. That’s absolute crap. Whoever told you that Muslims are more dependent on the Quran than Christians are on the Bible didn’t know what they were talking about. Muslims are actually vastly more ignorant of and far less likely to read the Quran than Christians are regarding the Bible. In fact, most Muslims can’t even read the Quran because the overwhelming majority can’t read Quranic Arabic and inside the Islamic World it’s extremely difficult to find copies in a language other than Quranic Arabic. I remember one wag once saying part jokingly, part seriously that it was easier in Pakistan to find a King James Bible than it was to find an Urdu Quran. Similarly, my father growing up in Iran never saw any Farsi translations of the Quran. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/68 "2012-12-24T00:25:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s absolute crap. > > Whoever told you that Muslims are more dependent on the Quran than Christians are on the Bible didn’t know what they were talking about. > > Muslims are actually vastly more ignorant of and far less likely to read the Quran than Christians are regarding the Bible. > > In fact, most Muslims can’t even read the Quran because the overwhelming majority can’t read Quranic Arabic and inside the Islamic World it’s extremely difficult to find copies in a language other than Quranic Arabic. > > I remember one wag once saying part jokingly, part seriously that it was easier in Pakistan to find a King James Bible than it was to find an Urdu Quran. > > Similarly, my father growing up in Iran never saw any Farsi translations of the Quran. Today, in the Christian world, one can ridicule, defile and destroy the Bible in public. Can one do this with the Koran in the Islamic world? Even in the middle ages Christians weren’t quite so in awe of the Bible as to not feel able to change it if they felt the need. In Christianity, particularly in the middle ages, Church tradition was at least as important, and, for all practical purposes, often even more important, than the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/69 "2012-12-24T01:59:04Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which means only that Muslims are as bad as Christians, once in a while, not that there is something intrinsically evil about Islam. Of the various religions around the world some have prophets who espouse killing and some don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/70 "2012-12-24T02:17:49Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > In Christianity, particularly in the middle ages, Church tradition was at least as important, and, for all practical purposes, often even more important, than the Bible. The above is true. > [@](#): > > In \*\*Islam \*\*particularly in the middle ages, tradition was at least as important, and, for all practical purposes, often even more important, than the **Quran.** So’s this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/71 "2012-12-24T02:18:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Of the various religions around the world some have prophets who espouse killing and some don’t. Which of the Abrahamic religions don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/72 "2012-12-24T02:55:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Aren’t you the guy who was claiming that Jerry Sandusky couldn’t have raped a child due to some weird paper towel tube test? … Just wanted to let you know. I know exactly who you are talking about, and without pointing any fingers, I can assure you that Lauren-C is not that person. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/73 "2012-12-24T03:12:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Which of the Abrahamic religions don’t? I said prophets. And I included all religions. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/74 "2012-12-24T10:07:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The above is true. > > So’s this. Since then, the Christian world has become secular, creating societies where freedom is valued very highly. Islam, on the other hand, has become increasingly fundamentalist. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/75 "2012-12-24T15:44:00Z")
Maybe a mod could retitle this as the History of Islam thread, if there’s not to be any effort to hold to the originally-proposed topic. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/76 "2012-12-24T19:44:21Z")
> [@Lauren-C](#): > > Since then, the Christian world has become secular, creating societies where freedom is valued very highly. Islam, on the other hand, has become increasingly fundamentalist. Sure. But the fact that both religions have changed over the past millennium argues that the characteristics you’re ascribing to both religions are not inherent to them. When Islamic societies were the richest and most powerful in he world, they were also the most tolerant. Now, when Christian societies are the richest and mot powerful, Christian societies are the most tolerant. This suggests to me that tolerance and egalitarianism are functions of affluence, and not the product of any particular theology. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/77 "2012-12-26T17:20:45Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In USA any hate speech short of threats of violence and provable slander is legal. According to SNYDER v. PHELPS ET AL. Even the group which has publicly stated that all Americans deserve to die has won the First Amandment case. > > In Canada, most of Europe, Australia, NZ, hate speech is prosecuted but very rarely. > > What is your opinion? I think the U.S. has it right, and the other nations you listed have it wrong (to varying degrees, as their laws vary). A free society should be marketplace of ideas, and the government has no legitimate role in probiting the otherwise-lawful expression of a particular opinion, hateful or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/78 "2013-01-04T01:33:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I think the U.S. has it right, and the other nations you listed have it wrong (to varying degrees, as their laws vary). A free society should be marketplace of ideas, and the government has no legitimate role in probiting the otherwise-lawful expression of a particular opinion, hateful or otherwise. Agreed here. [Article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/02/free-speech-twitter-france)in the Guardian in the UK about this very subject (WRT recent demands by France that Twitter automatically censor “hate speech”). It pretty much sums up my opinion: > [@](#): > > France’s censorship demands to Twitter are more dangerous than ‘hate speech’ > Few ideas have done as much damage throughout history as empowering the government to criminalize opinions it dislikes ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/79 "2013-01-04T02:03:38Z")
I don’t believe in censorship of anything, ever. EDIT: also don’t believe people should be punished for their opinions, regardless of how upsetting/horrid/rude. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881/80 "2013-01-04T15:30:37Z")
I believe that to ban any speech is to ban free speech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hate-speech-laws/644881.md?page=3)