# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/303 "2014-07-22T17:36:15Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m not at all disputing that people say and think that they are influenced by supernatural things. The HS telling one to be tolerant is the good version of voices telling someone to go out and hurt people. Perhaps this is a coping mechanism for people to morally evolve without facing up to being wrong. They couldn’t know what they were doing was hurtful until the HS told them. Or they might see it as part of their spiritual path. Like someone who doesn’t realize their acts of “love” are really enabling bad behaviour, until they do. I do think there are lot’s of reasons that people are religious that go unrecognized and unacknowledged. I learned a lot more about Christianity when I studied Eastern religions that focused on awakening our consciousness. IMO that’s the process Jesus actually talks about that many people see as simply “obey the rules” because true introspection and growth is much harder. I think there are a lot of subconscious reasons why people become religious and are drawn to certain types of religion. > [@](#): > > Nonetheless we’re still left with the curious fact that the HS seldom talks to a lot of people until the culture is ready. Hmmmm maybe the HS is what helped get the culture ready [you had to see that coming ;-}] > [@](#): > > And how do you know for sure that the supernatural advice to discriminate or invade Iraq is the correct advice? Unfortunately many who would seem the most amenable to receiving the HS - the super-devout - don’t get the message. Until a relative comes out, that is. sadly true. I don’t think you can know for sure but there are certain guidelines to judge by. When I decided I was no longer a Christian I stopped asking WWJD, but I’ve never stopped asking “what does love require?” or “What is the more honest truthful path?” I doubt many moderate or liberal Christians thought, " A holy War is brewing and Muslims are the enemy" ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/304 "2014-07-22T17:42:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Those against seem to quote the Bible and not claim that some HS is telling them to be against SSM. > If there were one HS, why wouldn’t it lead all in the same direction? Are there left wing spirits and right wing spirits? LOL maybe. I never thought about it. There are pretty clear passages in the Bible where Jesus is telling the religious of his day that they are not really seeking God, but merely following men’s traditions and creating their own. They were sincere, but also wrong. I suppose the HS could react the same way. It’s easy to say you’re following God’s will and the HS and perhaps believe it without nessecarily doing it. I think the NT makes that clear as well. Jesus indicated the true test was how your actions reflected what was going on inside. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/305 "2014-07-22T17:54:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My point was that the rigidity is what makes them stand up when it’s inconvenient or even outright dangerous. If your beliefs are malleable depending on the wisdom of society at any given time, then you’ll tend to conform to societal norms rather than standing against them. That is meaningless speculation and poor psychology. > [@](#): > > As someone who isn’t really a believer, but who has a background in religion from living in a devout Jewish family, I see religion’s primary value as being society’s conscience. When society “evolves” to say that this thing that used to be evil is now good, religious people remind us to hold on a minute and consider why these things were considered sinful. It seems like a pain in the ass when they are standing against the right of gays to be treated as human beings, but when they are protecting you from the next dictator by hiding you in their attic, you’ll be grateful such moral absolutists who aren’t swayed by a fickle society’s evolving moral values exist. Any suggestion that moderate or liberal Christians cannot draw clear lines and stand by them is nonsense. Suggesting they are merely going along with society rather than making a personal judgement call based on their own spiritual journey is more meaningless speculation. For example , an absolutist might say }all abortions are murder in the sight of God" while a liberal Christian might say “while I myself could never have or encourage abortion I don’t feel I have the right to make that moral judgement for other people. God judges , not I” That’s not wishy washy, that’s just a more nuanced moral stance recognizing their personal moral code may not be for everybody. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/306 "2014-07-22T17:58:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And one more thing, when you read a passage and don’t understand it, the Holy Spirit can give you insight into its meaning. > > When you read a passage and just don’t like it, it’s not the Holy Spirit telling you it’s not true. According to a moderate Christian’s belief, there’s another guy whispering in their ear. If you’re feeling that something you’re reading in your holy scripture isn’t true, that it shouldn’t be taken literally because it disagrees with what you’d like to be true, you’re opening yourself up to self-deception. ANd guess who comes calling when you do that? How is it you get to declare what a moderate Christian believes? I suspect you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/307 "2014-07-22T18:41:43Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > LOL maybe. I never thought about it. There are pretty clear passages in the Bible where Jesus is telling the religious of his day that they are not really seeking God, but merely following men’s traditions and creating their own. They were sincere, but also wrong. I suppose the HS could react the same way. It’s easy to say you’re following God’s will and the HS and perhaps believe it without nessecarily doing it. I think the NT makes that clear as well. Jesus indicated the true test was how your actions reflected what was going on inside. If it’s possible to say something, and truly believe it, but for others to say different things and truly believe those, too, all based on the idea that they have a “guide to truth” - isn’t the reasonable response to reject such appearances, even if we’re fully convinced of their rightness? Clearly we, as a species, are incapable of correctly divining the, er, divine. Shouldn’t we reject even our own certainty, given that we’re provably poor judges of what’s the HS and what isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/308 "2014-07-22T19:11:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > . . . I’m just saying that there are advantages to an ancient code of morals that doesn’t change, whether society becomes more enlightened, or whether society drifts into a dark period. . . . Disagree. It becomes a straitjacket in the good times, and, even when it is a force for good, in the bad times, it is doing so from misguided principles. “Abolish slavery because God says so” is bad public policy. “Abolish slavery because it harms people, is unfair, promotes injustice, and is violent and brutal” is sensible. Besides…if the code of morals didn’t change, there wouldn’t be any Christianity. The false prophet Jesus would have been put to death, and that would be the end of that nonsense. If moral codes didn’t change, Martin Luther would have been put to death, and there wouldn’t be any Protestantism. Be careful of what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/309 "2014-07-22T19:14:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And one more thing, when you read a passage and don’t understand it, the Holy Spirit can give you insight into its meaning. > > When you read a passage and just don’t like it, it’s not the Holy Spirit telling you it’s not true. . . . How do you know? It might very well be the Holy Spirit saying exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/310 "2014-07-22T19:15:44Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Any suggestion that moderate or liberal Christians cannot draw clear lines and stand by them is nonsense. Suggesting they are merely going along with society rather than making a personal judgement call based on their own spiritual journey is more meaningless speculation. > > For example , an absolutist might say }all abortions are murder in the sight of God" while a liberal Christian might say “while I myself could never have or encourage abortion I don’t feel I have the right to make that moral judgement for other people. God judges , not I” > That’s not wishy washy, that’s just a more nuanced moral stance recognizing their personal moral code may not be for everybody. That’s the way secular society thinks. So I’m wondering what the difference is between a moderate Christian and an agnostic aside from belief in God. How does belief in God make you behave differently from anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/311 "2014-07-22T19:21:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How do you know? It might very well be the Holy Spirit saying exactly that. Could be. But God is pretty clear early on: Do not add to this or subtract from it, and Paul, “All Scripture is God-breathed”. The only way you can just decide that something in the Bible is plain wrong is if you don’t believe it’s God-breathed. That’s a reasonable belief, but once you’ve acknowledged that, you’ve admitted that the Bible has no practical use, at least no more than any other book of philosophy. But if you do believe the Bible is God-breathed, and that God forbids you to add or subtract from it, then there’s only one entity out there that will convince you to subtract from it, and it’s not the Holy Spirit. There are many things about the Bible that aren’t clear, but one of the things that is crystal clear about it is the warnings about letting the Bible’s message be corrupted by secular(or pagan) society. It predicts that there will be those who call good evil and evil good. I guess Jews just take this more seriously than Christians. We have the Law, and that’s that. Christianity is pretty much what individual believers say it is, which sounds to me like a delightful situation for Satan if he exists. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/312 "2014-07-22T19:21:30Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If it’s possible to say something, and truly believe it, but for others to say different things and truly believe those, too, all based on the idea that they have a “guide to truth” - isn’t the reasonable response to reject such appearances, even if we’re fully convinced of their rightness? > > Clearly we, as a species, are incapable of correctly divining the, er, divine. Shouldn’t we reject even our own certainty, given that we’re provably poor judges of what’s the HS and what isn’t? An excellent well put question. Of course it’s a reasonable response to reject all belief in an divine existence , but it’s not the only reasonable one. I think uncertainty , the recognition that we are imperfect and life is always a learning and growing experience is the reasonble position. Those who claim to know in an absolute sense are only stalling thier own growth and impairing their positive influence on others IMHO. But one can still believe in God and communion with the HS while acknowledging the limited scope of this mortal life and the limits of our knowledge. IOW, for the believer /seeker, you can operate under “I do the best I can to grow and try to understand what the HS is communicating with me in any life experience. I acknowledge I am imperfect and won’t always get it right, but I have faith that as long as I continue to seek the opportunity to learn and grow, the opportunity to understand more, and love others more completely, will continue to be offered” IOM that’s also a very reasonable response. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/313 "2014-07-22T19:23:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If it’s possible to say something, and truly believe it, but for others to say different things and truly believe those, too, all based on the idea that they have a “guide to truth” - isn’t the reasonable response to reject such appearances, even if we’re fully convinced of their rightness? > > Clearly we, as a species, are incapable of correctly divining the, er, divine. Shouldn’t we reject even our own certainty, given that we’re provably poor judges of what’s the HS and what isn’t? and a question. Isn’t it equally possible for two atheists, or two secular groups to both be convinced their chosen path, or solution to an issue, is the best and for either of them or perhaps both , to be dead wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/314 "2014-07-22T19:28:46Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and a question. Isn’t it equally possible for two atheists, or two secular groups to both be convinced their chosen path, or solution to an issue, is the best and for either of them or perhaps both , to be dead wrong? Yep, at which time the atheists have the opportunity to examine the facts on both sides and make a redetermination without having to deny the HOLY WORD of his or her deity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/315 "2014-07-22T19:32:59Z")
There are countless issues people can disagree on, but at SDMB posters rightfully get frustrated when posters discount basic facts. In religion, a “fact” is a clear as day passage, such as Jesus saying that divorce is a sin. There is no ambiguity, he says it, then further says that a man who divorces a woman makes her an adulterer. So when a person who is Christian tries to argue that divorce is not a sin, then they are denying what passes for a hard fact. Christians can of course disagree on whether the dietary laws apply to Christians, and they do. Jesus’ pronouncements about the Law are clear as mud. On divorce, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/316 "2014-07-22T19:34:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s the way secular society thinks. So I’m wondering what the difference is between a moderate Christian and an agnostic aside from belief in God. How does belief in God make you behave differently from anyone else? Who said it does? All I maintain is that being a moderate or liberal Christian or believer is not is not as messed up as the OP indicates. People get to choose their own path and if the path of atheism works for you that’s fine. If the path of belief works for another m that’s fine too. I just get a little weary of of certain atheists ridiculing beliefs and pretending their ridicule is reasoned criticism. If someone thinks all spiritual beliefs are nonsense that’s their privilage and no harm done by an honest opinion. If they then think that somehow makes them intellectually superior to anyone with spiritual or religious beliefs I attribute that to ego rather than solid reasoning. I think it’s more sound to actually strive to understand how moderate and liberal Christian think and believe before critisizing them with what you only assumed was true. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/317 "2014-07-22T19:36:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yep, at which time the atheists have the opportunity to examine the facts on both sides and make a redetermination without having to deny the HOLY WORD of his or her deity. It’s not denying the HS to think “I previously didn’t understand but thanks to the guidence and patience of the HS , now I do” What’s the practical differnce in admitting a mistake from a secular or religious POV other than your personal preference? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/318 "2014-07-22T19:40:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There are countless issues people can disagree on, but at SDMB posters rightfully get frustrated when posters discount basic facts. In religion, a “fact” is a clear as day passage, such as Jesus saying that divorce is a sin. There is no ambiguity, he says it, then further says that a man who divorces a woman makes her an adulterer. So when a person who is Christian tries to argue that divorce is not a sin, then they are denying what passes for a hard fact. Christians can of course disagree on whether the dietary laws apply to Christians, and they do. Jesus’ pronouncements about the Law are clear as mud. On divorce, not so much. This simply isn’t true. You have no right to make any claim on what a Christian has to believe about a passage. If a Christian believes the Bible is a scared guide by men of another time and culture but not the final divine authority then are consistent logical {within the framework of thehir belief} to seek God and the HS as the only final divine authority. What you claim to be fact simply isn’t one at all. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/319 "2014-07-22T19:42:19Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Who said it does? All I maintain is that being a moderate or liberal Christian or believer is not is not as messed up as the OP indicates. I wouldn’t call it “messed up”, and of course as an individual you should do what you think best. If you see value in religion strictly as a spiritual endeavour, then more power to you. I’ve always seen religion as a way of life. For a time I lived it, then I stopped. I suppose I could have just decided that it was cool for me to work Sabbath and have sex outside of marriage, despite the Torah telling me numerous times in different ways so that I couldn’t misinterpret that those things are not okay. Instead, I concluded one of two things: a) either God doesn’t exist and these rules are just outmoded traditions of an ancient society, or b) God does exist, I’m in rebellion, and I will have to answer for my sins. IMO, these are the only two logical outcomes. I suppose there’s a c) God exists, the Bible is inaccurate and not meant to be taken literally, and God never bothered to lift a finger to stop this false message, but that seems REALLY unlikely to me, and even if it is possible, it means I just don’t know what God wants. > [@](#): > > People get to choose their own path and if the path of atheism works for you that’s fine. If the path of belief works for another m that’s fine too. I just get a little weary of of certain atheists ridiculing beliefs and pretending their ridicule is reasoned criticism. I hear ya. I respect religion a great deal and the best people I’ve ever known have been deeply religious. I’m not one of those atheists. I just don’t get people whose moral code is no different from mine, derived from their reason and societal norms, but professing belief in God. What is God doing for you if he’s not telling you what he wants from you? Or that what he wants from you is the same thing your drinking buddies want from you? > [@](#): > > I think it’s more sound to actually strive to understand how moderate and liberal Christian think and believe before critisizing them with what you only assumed was true. Moderate and liberal Christians have a diversity of views. I’m not attacking specific views other than the one they all have in common: that if the Bible and society’s norms conflict, the Bible must give ground. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/320 "2014-07-22T19:43:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > This simply isn’t true. You have no right to make any claim on what a Christian has to believe about a passage. If a Christian believes the Bible is a scared guide by men of another time and culture but not the final divine authority then are consistent logical {within the framework of thehir belief} to seek God and the HS as the only final divine authority. > > What you claim to be fact simply isn’t one at all. ``` 2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. ``` What is the alternate interpretation of this passage? Sorry for the King James, that was just the first link I turned up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/321 "2014-07-22T19:44:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It’s not denying the HS to think “I previously didn’t understand but thanks to the guidence and patience of the HS , now I do” > > What’s the practical differnce in admitting a mistake from a secular or religious POV other than your personal preference? It removes a layer of bs from the process. It skips the “I can see the logic of what he is saying…now how can I justify it through my faith?” step. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/322 "2014-07-22T20:27:12Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > An excellent well put question. > > Of course it’s a reasonable response to reject all belief in an divine existence , but it’s not the only reasonable one. > > I think uncertainty , the recognition that we are imperfect and life is always a learning and growing experience is the reasonble position. Those who claim to know in an absolute sense are only stalling thier own growth and impairing their positive influence on others IMHO. But one can still believe in God and communion with the HS while acknowledging the limited scope of this mortal life and the limits of our knowledge. > > IOW, for the believer /seeker, you can operate under “I do the best I can to grow and try to understand what the HS is communicating with me in any life experience. I acknowledge I am imperfect and won’t always get it right, but I have faith that as long as I continue to seek the opportunity to learn and grow, the opportunity to understand more, and love others more completely, will continue to be offered” > > IOM that’s also a very reasonable response. I don’t think so. The problem there is that it that it just shifts the problem along a step. We don’t have any kind of reason to believe that continued searching for truth will end up with any kind of accurate result, either. If it did, we’d see people start off their lives with diverse religious beliefs, but grow more similar and closer together with age, and I don’t think we do. There’s no reason to think that people’s ability to divine the divine gets better with age, experience, and a continued open mind, and because of that there isn’t reason to trust our own perceptions. They might be right, they might be wrong; but one thing we can say is that we, in general, don’t have the ability to discern one from the other. > [@](#): > > and a question. Isn’t it equally possible for two atheists, or two secular groups to both be convinced their chosen path, or solution to an issue, is the best and for either of them or perhaps both , to be dead wrong? Yes, of course. But the difference is - at least in theory - an atheistic position isn’t dependent on faith (or solely on faith, per whatever definition). We do have means of testing material concepts of reality. We have the scientific method, and we can put emphasis on those aspects of an idea that we can test. Most importantly for this subject, we can lend credence to an idea via not just testing something, but by providing the means for others to make those same tests and get their own results. Effectively religious faith is like performing a test that that, in reproduction, gives different results for everyone who tries it. I think the only reasonable reaction to that is to say that either the test is badly designed, or it is correctly designed but our questions were wrong. Either way, the response to that shouldn’t be to say “Well, hey, it’s _my_ test, and that’s what \*I \*experienced, and so I’ll assume my answers are true.” It is to reject the test, or tinker with it until it suggests accuracy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=17)