# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/663 "2015-04-22T02:19:55Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Are you under the impression that it is entirely fiction? There are people referenced in the Bible who are generally accepted to be real historical persons. No, I’m under the impression that the parts you find personally relevant are teh parts you don’t think are fiction. The rest, fiction. > [@sisu](#): > > Well to be fair it’s very very old and has been rewritten many many times by people with agendas so to say it is accurate is a falsehood. true > [@](#): > > Philosophic tomes like the bible operate in a grey area between fiction and non-fiction. But yes it is a work of fiction as it uses metaphors, symbolism to illustrate points. So you admit it is all false then? > [@](#): > > Robert163 it is not and no one has ever claimed it to be a Science Book Now thats definitely true!!! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/664 "2015-04-22T02:29:37Z")
Believing that some parts of the Bible are allegorical is certainly a reasonable way to look at it, and to a large extent it is up to the reader to determine which parts are and which parts aren’t. Problem is, that does not actually explain deviations from scripture by some mainstream denominations. There is no translation, interpretation, or context that allows a Christian to divorce except in cases of infidelity. There is no translation that allows for fornication. There’s also the small matter of Jesus’ comment about being wealthy and gaining salvation. And the modern middle class household is far wealthier and comfortable than any rich man of Jesus’ time. It seems pretty obvious now why Jesus said that: because people who care about being a part of society make moral compromises which they then rationalize to themselves as righteous, perhaps of superior righteousness to what Jesus actually told them to do and not to do. It’s not just love of money that gets believers into trouble. It’s love of praise and acceptance by your community, many of whom are non-believers or not too serious about religion. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/665 "2015-04-22T02:32:25Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So you admit it is all false then? Why is it so important to you that the Bible be “false?” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/666 "2015-04-22T02:35:28Z")
It’s truthy? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/667 "2015-04-22T02:36:43Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Why is it so important to you that the Bible be “false?” 1- Because I’ve been told all of my life that it is true 2- I live in a town where you are socially ostracized if you are not a christian ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/668 "2015-04-22T02:40:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Believing that some parts of the Bible are allegorical is certainly a reasonable way to look at it, and to a large extent it is up to the reader to determine which parts are and which parts aren’t. Problem is, that does not actually explain deviations from scripture by some mainstream denominations. There is no translation, interpretation, or context that allows a Christian to divorce except in cases of infidelity. There is no translation that allows for fornication. There’s also the small matter of Jesus’ comment about being wealthy and gaining salvation. And the modern middle class household is far wealthier and comfortable than any rich man of Jesus’ time. It seems pretty obvious now why Jesus said that: because people who care about being a part of society make moral compromises which they then rationalize to themselves as righteous, perhaps of superior righteousness to what Jesus actually told them to do and not to do. It’s not just love of money that gets believers into trouble. It’s love of praise and acceptance by your community, many of whom are non-believers or not too serious about religion. it sounds as if you actually think Jesus lived and actually said the things people said that he said ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/669 "2015-04-22T02:48:21Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You can stop there. Anything else beyond that point is a rationalization. It is not logical to call yourself a christian. Who died and made you the arbitrator of who is and who isn’t a Christian? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/670 "2015-04-22T02:49:37Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Why is it so important to you that the Bible be “false?” 3- Because imprinting on someone’s mind that they are going to hell, or, their friends and coworkers are going to hell is a form of abuse, mental cruelty. 4- Because religion separates people, both within sects and between beliefs. People would be much closer to each other without religious barriers. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/671 "2015-04-22T02:51:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Who died and made you the arbitrator of who is and who isn’t a Christian? :dubious: It’s not about my judgement. It’s about the logical inconsistency of your belief system. It has no external validity. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/672 "2015-04-22T02:52:50Z")
If you believe in God, then he’d probably have a way to tell believers what he expected of them, as well as inform them of their history, so there would be a holy book with that useful stuff in it. I have a lot more tolerance for religious people than I do for people who believe in astrology or reflexology or neo-paganism. They were told that a book came from God, and I can’t prove it didn’t. What I can do is read that book and compare what’s in the book to how people actually practice. And one of the admirable things about Christianity is that it recognizes that people will screw up because people are sinners. We are all vulnerable to our darker and selfish impulses. It’s actually a brilliant explanation of human nature. Where believers go wrong is when rather than admitting that much of what society allows today is a concession to that dark, selfish nature, they decide that those things aren’t sins at all. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/673 "2015-04-22T02:56:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If you believe in God, then he’d probably have a way to tell believers what he expected of them, as well as inform them of their history, so there would be a holy book with that useful stuff in it. I have a lot more tolerance for religious people than I do for people who believe in astrology or reflexology or neo-paganism. They were told that a book came from God, and I can’t prove it didn’t. What I can do is read that book and compare what’s in the book to how people actually practice. And one of the admirable things about Christianity is that it recognizes that people will screw up because people are sinners. We are all vulnerable to our darker and selfish impulses. It’s actually a brilliant explanation of human nature. Where believers go wrong is when rather than admitting that much of what society allows today is a concession to that dark, selfish nature, they decide that those things aren’t sins at all. Actually, man is an animal that needs to survive, to eat, reproduce, acquire, consume and stay alive. On top of that we have a complex set of emotions and thought processes. This is no way resembles the bible’s explanation of human nature and our shortcomings. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/674 "2015-04-22T02:58:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Who died and made you the arbitrator of who is and who isn’t a Christian? :dubious: No one is claiming to say who is and who isn’t a Christian. However, we can point out errors, and the Bible even encourages believers to rebuke each other when they are operating on misunderstandings, or worse, trying to justify their sins rather than repent them. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/675 "2015-04-22T03:05:09Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually, man is an animal that needs to survive, to eat, reproduce, acquire, consume and stay alive. On top of that we have a complex set of emotions and thought processes. This is no way resembles the bible’s explanation of human nature and our shortcomings. True, but Christian philosophy isn’t interested in the why of our dark nature, but rather recognizing that it exists and how we can overcome it. If there was a God, or more advanced aliens than us, they’d probably be disgusted that we are such slaves to our biology and would want no part of us in their society. Unless we said, “All right, I’m going to give all my trust to you, you show me the way I should live. I know I’ll screw up, but if I keep my trust in you and keep on striving, and confess and repent my sins, then I can be acceptable in your eyes.” ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/676 "2015-04-22T03:07:58Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Because I’ve been told all of my life that it is true > 2- I live in a town where you are socially ostracized if you are not a christian 1- fair enough. 2- ah if you had been brought up in good old secular Australia you may (I stress may) not have such a hard line against us. > [@Robert163](#): > > 3- Because imprinting on someone’s mind that they are going to hell, or, their friends and coworkers are going to hell is a form of abuse, mental cruelty. > 4- Because religion separates people, both within sects and between beliefs. People would be much closer to each other without religious barriers. 3- I don’t disagree with this much, going to hell is a pretty poor way to get people to behave. 4- Again living in a secular society means I have friends who are Jewish, Moslem, Christians, Scientologists, Buddhists, Atheists etc etc etc of all differing flavours. > [@adaher](#): > > No one is claiming to say who is and who isn’t a Christian. However, we can point out errors, and the Bible even encourages believers to rebuke each other when they are operating on misunderstandings, or worse, trying to justify their sins rather than repent them. Great don’t tell me what I am but yes holding a mirror up to me is quite acceptable but do not tell me you are 100% right as I will just ignore anyone who says they have ultimate answers. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/677 "2015-04-22T03:09:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True, but Christian philosophy isn’t interested in the why of our dark nature, but rather recognizing that it exists and how we can overcome it. If there was a God, or more advanced aliens than us, they’d probably be disgusted that we are such slaves to our biology and would want no part of us in their society. Unless we said, “All right, I’m going to give all my trust to you, you show me the way I should live. I know I’ll screw up, but if I keep my trust in you and keep on striving, and confess and repent my sins, then I can be acceptable in your eyes.” This is Christian Philosophy: 1- Adam ans Eve ate forbidden fruit. 2- You have to believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected to save you from your sins and get you into heaven. If you don’t believe that you go to hell. That’s what the text actually says. Anything beyond that is being made up and added on to. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/678 "2015-04-22T03:11:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It’s not about my judgement. It’s about the logical inconsistency of your belief system. It has no external validity. I don’t recall saying I was a Christian. However, your comment just reeks of “no true Scotsman”, dude. > [@Robert163](#): > > it sounds as if you actually think Jesus lived and actually said the things people said that he said Many scholars feel that the Biblical Jesus was based on one or more individuals. And even if he wasn’t, does that really matter? The purpose of great literature isn’t merely to entertain. Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Jonathan Swift, Harper Lee, George Orwell – all of them were trying to prove a point. I also noted that you were speaking from your experience living in a town where pretty much everyone is Christian, and if you’re not, you’re a pariah. Perhaps you need to step outside of that (metaphorically speaking). Not all of the U.S. is like the Bible Belt. > [@Robert163](#): > > This is Christian Philosophy: > > 1- Adam ans Eve ate forbidden fruit. > 2- You have to believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected to save you from your sins and get you into heaven. If you don’t believe that you go to hell. > > That’s what the text actually says. Anything beyond that is being made up and added on to. The Catholic Church teachs that the first is somewhat metaphorical. (Forgive me, it’s been awhile since I was in school!) And it certainly does NOT teach that if you don’t believe in Jesus, you go to Hell. So by your logic, Catholics are not Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/679 "2015-04-22T03:11:30Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > 1- fair enough. > > 2- ah if you had been brought up in good old secular Australia you may (I stress may) not have such a hard line against us. > > 3- I don’t disagree with this much, going to hell is a pretty poor way to get people to behave. > > 4- Again living in a secular society means I have friends who are Jewish, Moslem, Christians, Scientologists, Buddhists, Atheists etc etc etc of all differing flavours. > > Great don’t tell me what I am but yes holding a mirror up to me is quite acceptable but do not tell me you are 100% right as I will just ignore anyone who says they have ultimate answers. I lived in NYC for several years. It was overwhelmingly secular with some Christians scattered into the balance. Under those conditions the religious aspects were not as bad. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/680 "2015-04-22T03:13:33Z")
Yeah, the mechanism has no evidence to support it, but it does work. THat’s even part of drug rehab, you have to believe in a higher power because your own efforts failed. The idea that man is so flawed is the whole concept behind modern liberal ideas of freedom as well. Since no man is fit to rule, the only rational thing to do is let us all rule ourselves. That’s why secular society allows many things religious law does not: because people have a right to destroy themselves, they just don’t have a right to destroy others. But Christianity should not be going along with that logic, because part of religion is keeping yourself holy and treating God’s creation, which includes your body, with respect. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/681 "2015-04-22T03:14:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I don’t recall saying I was a Christian. However, your comment just reeks of “no true Scotsman”, dude. > > Many scholars feel that the Biblical Jesus was based on one or more individuals. And even if he wasn’t, does that really matter? The purpose of great literature isn’t merely to entertain. Mark Twain, John Steinbeck, Jonathan Swift, Harper Lee, George Orwell – all of them were trying to prove a point. > > I also noted that you were speaking from your experience living in a town where pretty much everyone is Christian, and if you’re not, you’re a pariah. Perhaps you need to step outside of that (metaphorically speaking). Not all of the U.S. is like the Bible Belt. 1-If you are not a Christian why are you defending a false set of ideals 2- Please don’t tell me I should “step out of the bible belt”. There are several reasons why it is not practical for me to leave. The fact that there are more secular places to live does not make living here any easier. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/682 "2015-04-22T03:16:09Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The Catholic Church teachs that the first is metaphorical, mostly. And it certainly does NOT teach that if you don’t believe in Jesus, you go to Hell. So by your logic, Catholics are not Christians. How can that be mostly metaphorical. It either happened or it didn’t. There are only two possibilities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=35)