# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/683 "2015-04-22T03:21:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > How can that be mostly metaphorical. It either happened or it didn’t. There are only two possibilities. Jeez you and your black and white views. Of course it can be mostly metaphorical, it’s the story that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/684 "2015-04-22T03:24:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1-If you are not a Christian why are you defending a false set of ideals > 2- Please don’t tell me I should “step out of the bible belt”. There are several reasons why it is not practical for me to leave. The fact that there are more secular places to live does not make living here any easier. Maybe I feel the Bible has more to offer, even if it’s not literally true. It’s not one big monolithic book. And my experience was growing up in a fairly liberal Catholic family, in Western Pennsylvania. Not exactly Fundie Central. And I said step out “metaphorically”, as in, get your mindset out of there. Think outside the box, so to speak. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > How can that be mostly metaphorical. It either happened or it didn’t. There are only two possibilities. Why? Why can’t something be a story told to teach a lesson? Was the Allegory of the Cave true? And if not, does that mean it has no value whatsoever? And you still didn’t answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/685 "2015-04-22T03:27:06Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why? Why can’t something be a story told to teach a lesson? Was the Allegory of the Cave true? And if not, does that mean it has no value whatsoever? Allegory is fine. The parable of the cave is cave is presented _as a parable_. The bible is not. It’s only now that science disproves it that people want to say it is allegorical. > [@](#): > > And you still didn’t answer my question. What question ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/686 "2015-04-22T03:29:10Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Jeez you and your black and white views. Of course it can be mostly metaphorical, it’s the story that matters. How, specifically, can it be metaphorical (the story of the fruit)? It either happened, or, it didn’t. If it — did — happen then it is not a metaphor. If it didn’t happen it is not “mostly” metaphor it is —entirely — metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/687 "2015-04-22T03:31:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Allegory is fine. The parable of the cave is cave is presented _as a parable_. The bible is not. It’s only now that science disproves it that people want to say it is allegorical. > > What question Are Catholics Christians, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/688 "2015-04-22T03:34:02Z")
I’d point out though that whether or not that story actually happened has no bearing on how Jews or Christians are supposed to live. Just thinking about the nature of God and man logically as well, if we’re his children, it would make sense that he’d tell us stories like a father to a child that aren’t true but impart moral lessons. We later figure out the reality on our own. Perhaps if we get to ask God about how the universe was created he’d say, “yeah, the universe is 15 billion years old and man evolved from apes, but I needed to make you understand my plan in a simple way that the average person from 2000 BC could deal with.” ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/689 "2015-04-22T03:34:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Are Catholics Christians, yes or no? Yes. But if they believe things about Jesus/Christianity that are not printed in the bible then those beliefs have no validity. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/690 "2015-04-22T03:36:36Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’d point out though that whether or not that story actually happened has no bearing on how Jews or Christians are supposed to live. > > Just thinking about the nature of God and man logically as well, if we’re his children, it would make sense that he’d tell us stories like a father to a child that aren’t true but impart moral lessons. We later figure out the reality on our own. Perhaps if we get to ask God about how the universe was created he’d say, “yeah, the universe is 15 billion years old and man evolved from apes, but I needed to make you understand my plan in a simple way that the average person from 2000 BC could deal with.” Yes, what a great story to tell kids!!! Your great great greet grandfather ate some fruit and now that’s why — you — have to contend with sickness and death and war. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/691 "2015-04-22T03:43:57Z")
The allegory is that man’s sinful nature is the cause of his misery, which is true for the most part. If we were free of sin, all we’d ever worry about is natural disasters and those would be a lot less awful since our wonderful selves would be providing effective help whenever one struck. There’d be no war, no famine(in the modern world, famine is something that only happens to corrupt countries), a lot less disease(lots of selfish people spreading their illnesses), etc. If I’m going along with the logic of the story, I’m assuming God and Moses were up on Mt Sinai and God was like, “So where should I start?” and Moses was all like, "How about “In the beginning?”, which was shortly followed by “Why do bad things happen?” ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/692 "2015-04-22T03:46:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The allegory is that man’s sinful nature is the cause of his misery, which is true for the most part. If we were free of sin, all we’d ever worry about is natural disasters and those would be a lot less awful since our wonderful selves would be providing effective help whenever one struck. There’d be no war, no famine(in the modern world, famine is something that only happens to corrupt countries), a lot less disease(lots of selfish people spreading their illnesses), etc. No, actually it is the brutality of nature that is responsible. The world is brutal. Man is an animal. An evolved animal. Who (normally) chooses to do good when given the opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/693 "2015-04-22T03:48:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes. But if they believe things about Jesus/Christianity that are not printed in the bible then those beliefs have no validity. Which Bible and which translation? I choose what is valid to me, not anyone else. Science in the western world came largely from religion. Of course we are gong to change our world views as more information comes to hand. We are after all the learning ape. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/694 "2015-04-22T03:51:22Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Which Bible and which translation? I choose what is valid to me, not anyone else. Well, quite honestly that is something that only a biblical scholar could say. An - objective - biblical scholar. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/695 "2015-04-22T03:52:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, what a great story to tell kids!!! Your great great greet grandfather ate some fruit and now that’s why — you — have to contend with sickness and death and war. What the story means is that once we were perfect and we can all be again if we accept we are not. To improve one must first realise we are not perfect and maybe we will never be. At it’s centre the message is a good one. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/696 "2015-04-22T03:57:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, actually it is the brutality of nature that is responsible. The world is brutal. Man is an animal. An evolved animal. Who (normally) chooses to do good when given the opportunity. Well yes, if we regard man as simply part of nature. The idea behind religion and modern philosophy in general is that we’re trying to move beyond our biological nature. But I agree that what we know about who we actually are, who science tells us we are, is a useful thing to know. But it’s also a very complicated story and civilization in its infancy wasn’t ready for such complexity. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/697 "2015-04-22T03:58:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well, quite honestly that is something that only a biblical scholar could say. An - objective - biblical scholar. Who says I haven’t spent the last 49 years of my life pondering what god means to me by using various bibles and other holy/inspirational books? The bible is one and I think the most important of them as it has shaped our western society more than any other but I can also read Jonathan Livingston Seagull and get “divine” inspiration from that. You may say that I am not a true Christian, hey that’s your prerogative but I just don’t agree with you. Religion like all of humankind evolves, to say any different is naive at best. America seems to have this absolute view on what Christianity is, most people in the world don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/698 "2015-04-22T03:59:59Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Who says I haven’t spent the last 49 years of my life pondering what god means to me by using various bibles and other holy/inspirational books? > > The bible is one and I think the most important of them as it has shaped our western society more than any other but I can also read Jonathan Livingston Seagull and get “divine” inspiration from that. > > You may say that I am not a true Christian, hey that’s your prerogative but I just don’t agree with you. Religion like all of humankind evolves, to say any different is naive at best. America seems to have this absolute view on what Christianity is, most people in the world don’t. Did you study ancient sources and texts in their native language? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/699 "2015-04-22T04:00:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes. But if they believe things about Jesus/Christianity that are not printed in the bible then those beliefs have no validity. You’re speaking of the doctrine of [_sola scriptura_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura), in other words? That’s a Protestant belief system, and has never been a part of Catholicism, nor Eastern Orthodoxy. Your beliefs and knowledge really do seem to be colored by growing up in a fundamentalist area. I’m not saying that to be rude, but perhaps you need to educate yourself on different branches and philosophies of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/700 "2015-04-22T04:02:17Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > What the story means is that once we were perfect and we can all be again if we accept we are not. To improve one must first realise we are not perfect and maybe we will never be. > > At it’s centre the message is a good one. What? I mean, seriously, that is the modern humanistic interpretation of that story. The original version involves an atonement sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/701 "2015-04-22T04:03:37Z")
Well, I don’t think you can learn anything useful about the nature of God by reading various holy books. All you learn from that is how different people imagine God. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/702 "2015-04-22T04:08:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You’re speaking of the doctrine of [_sola scriptura_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura), in other words? That’s a Protestant belief system, and has never been a part of Catholicism, nor Eastern Orthodoxy. > > Your beliefs and knowledge really do seem to be colored by growing up in a fundamentalist area. I’m not saying that to be rude, but perhaps you need to educate yourself on different branches and philosophies of Christianity. I am familiar with Sola Scripture. Just because Catholics believe in it does not make it logically consistent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=36)