# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/63 "2014-07-14T15:00:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well at least you admit it’s not logical. Very few Christians do. I can’t say I have any big problem with your beliefs. Huh. You must not have attended many church services around the Easter season. In my experience, this type of discussion is fairly common in homilies. As well, it dates back to the Paul’s writings, particularly 1 Corinthians: [QUOTE=Paul] “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18) “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.” (1 Corinthians 1:21) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/64 "2014-07-14T15:07:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The typical number for Christians is 6,000, and that’s a matter of Biblical interpretation. For some Christians only. Most main-line denominations don’t take that position. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/65 "2014-07-14T15:11:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > For some Christians only. Most main-line denominations don’t take that position. Right. I meant the typical number associated with Young Earth Creationists. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/66 "2014-07-14T15:15:26Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > At the time the bible was being written (dictated by god), You’re confusing Islam with Christianity on this point. Muslims believe that the Koran was dictated by Allah to Mohammed. That is not part of Christian doctrine. The books of the Bible are considered inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was written by mortals. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/67 "2014-07-14T16:24:21Z")
This reminds me of when I was a vegetarian and people would try to play “gotcha”'with my leather shoes or gelatin in my Skittles. The thing is, I never claimed absolute consistency in my eating habits. Not did I owe anyone that. I was well aware that my beliefs were contradictory and inconsistent. So what? My beliefs and practices served exactly the role I needed them to, and there would be no value of adding anything else to them (except trying to appease hecklers, who no doubt would not be appeased). So playing “gotcha” doesn’t work when you aren’t clued in to the rules the other guy is playing by. And in the end, humans are most at home when there is a little ambiguity. We are messy creatures. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/68 "2014-07-14T16:29:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > My beliefs and practices served exactly the role I needed them to, and there would be no value of adding anything else to them (except trying to appease hecklers, who no doubt would not be appeased). > > So playing “gotcha” doesn’t work when you aren’t clued in to the rules the other guy is playing by. What role did your beliefs serve? What rules were you playing by? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/69 "2014-07-14T16:35:26Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > OK, I admit up front I am an atheist and even more accurately an anti-theist… > > I have a hard time respecting the moderately religious. Like, you have enough common sense or intelligence to recognize that the world is not 10,000 years old or that stories of talking snakes and talking donkeys are myths, as well as Noah’s Ark and other stories, but you somehow still think there is only one god, the christian god, and you must believe in him or go to hell. Even harder to understand/respect is the liberal christian, “I believe in Jesus but I think there are many paths (besides Jesus) to heaven”. That is so completely against the bible. Why even bother to be religious if you are just going to make up your own version of the religion? Why not be “spiritual” instead? From religious to Christian in one post. What about Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists and those retarded Wicca dudes and what not. They’re idiots too I suppose. But anyway, what does it matter to you what a persons thinks or believes; the only thing that ought to matter to you what he does. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/70 "2014-07-14T16:43:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You’re confusing Islam with Christianity on this point. Muslims believe that the Koran was dictated by Allah to Mohammed. That is not part of Christian doctrine. The books of the Bible are considered inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it was written by mortals. Several Amazon listings show “God” as a co-author of The Bible. [Here’s one](http://www.amazon.com/King-James-Bible-KJV-Version-ebook/dp/B005C16286/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1405351959&sr=1-1). (KJV, of course!) If somebody isn’t trying to force their religion into law, I don’t care about what they believe. The moderate folks are usually fine–since I’m fairly religion-free, why should I waste my time on judging them? I was raised Catholic & we learned the Bible. But we also learned to take it with a grain of salt… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/71 "2014-07-14T16:46:39Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I was raised Catholic & we learned the Bible. But we also learned to take it with a grain of salt… Particularly the story of Lot’s wife. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/72 "2014-07-14T16:48:50Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > OK, I admit up front I am an atheist and even more accurately an anti-theist… > > I have a hard time respecting the moderately religious. Like, you have enough common sense or intelligence to recognize that the world is not 10,000 years old or that stories of talking snakes and talking donkeys are myths, as well as Noah’s Ark and other stories, but you somehow still think there is only one god, the christian god, and you must believe in him or go to hell. Even harder to understand/respect is the liberal christian, “I believe in Jesus but I think there are many paths (besides Jesus) to heaven”. **That is so completely against the bible.** Why even bother to be religious if you are just going to make up your own version of the religion? Why not be “spiritual” instead? [Bolding mine.] And if you don’t believe the bible is infallible, what then? Is it okay for those of us who feel that way to be “moderately religious”? > [@Robert163](#): > > You can not make the argument that “original sin” and “Christ’s redemption”, is the true word of god, if, you reject Noah’s Ark and the Garden of Eden. Oral history and multiple translations only weigh in against the veracity of any part of the bible, not, in favor of it. Sure you can, if you understand that truths can be nestled in amongst the embellishments, half-truths, self-serving agendas and other bits that are nothing more than allegories to begin with. > [@Steken](#): > > Yes you can. Christians cherry-pick their favourite Bible bits all the time. That’s how religion works; hell, that’s how human beings work. What’s wrong with it, exactly? This precisely. That’s why some sprinkle and some dunk. Others believe in speaking in tongues, while most do not. Still some holdouts who rail against homosexuality in Leviticus, yet still mix fabrics or eat shellfish. It happens even with the most hardcore devout. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Mind you, I know a lot of religious people, and I do get that they believe because they don’t examine the beliefs. It’s like a painful tooth that your tongue skips over. Especially the weak believers. They want to believe it. It’s comforting, it’s easy. I remember when I believed. For a long time my questions were pushed away by a sensation of dread similar to my fear of heights. I was afraid to question things. Afraid that I’d burn in hell. For me, my personal experience has been exactly opposite this. One of the reasons I fell away from fundamentalism is because I couldn’t believe things anymore that I felt weren’t accurate. I segued into agnosticism, then have somewhat come back to a tenuous faith. Why? Because I think there may be more out there, but it’s not governed in such a contradictory or harmful way. And anything that seems to not fit, those are the things I puzzle over and try to reconcile. Otherwise, I wouldn’t feel like I’m being true to myself or my concept of “God.” > [@Robert163](#): > > 1- If the bible is not “literally” true then what possible value is it? You really don’t know? Same as any other “Golden Rule” texts. It’s a collection of valuable suggestions on how to live a good life, not only for yourself, but to help the greater community (or world at large). Also, what **Bob** and **Marley** said so well. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/73 "2014-07-14T17:25:59Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > God doesn’t exist, dear. So we can’t analyze fictional characters? And yeah, all modern religions are syncretic train wrecks. We should still be animistic Venus idol worshippers, or whatever our caveman forebears were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/74 "2014-07-14T18:22:47Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So playing “gotcha” doesn’t work when you aren’t clued in to the rules the other guy is playing by. And in the end, humans are most at home when there is a little ambiguity. We are messy creatures. Ahem. The point of the OP was asking what rules you are playing by. We know what rules the literalists use, but the OP was not about them. Moderate religionists are usually more moral than the God they believe in, at least as rules in the Bible go. That’s to be respected. But how do you justify that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality when the Bible clearly says the opposite. And not in an allegory. Clearly people do it by using their more advanced 21st century ethics and thus assume that God couldn’t possibly be so primitive. How do you know that? It is not that people back then in general couldn’t accept that there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex - just look at Aristotle. This whole thread has been those who pick and choose (for good ethical, non-religious reasons) which parts of the Bible to accept being in total denial that they pick and choose irrationally. So, what rules do you use, besides this feels right to me and that feels wrong to me? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/75 "2014-07-14T18:27:15Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > [Bolding mine.] > > And if you don’t believe the bible is infallible, what then? Is it okay for those of us who feel that way to be “moderately religious”? His point had nothing to do with literalism, but with the fundamental thing that makes Christians Christian. If you believe that there are other paths to salvation, what was the point of Christ dying anyhow? This has nothing to do with the Flood or the Exodus or the age of the earth. If someone came up with absolute proof that Christ did not get resurrected, would this all of a sudden become an allegory also? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/76 "2014-07-14T18:29:13Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > So we can’t analyze fictional characters? > > And yeah, all modern religions are syncretic train wrecks. We should still be animistic Venus idol worshippers, or whatever our caveman forebears were doing. Anyone meeting once a week to worship Harry Potter or Huckleberry Finn, and to raise money to spread the word would be considered quite odd. I’m with you on Venus idol worship, though. The religious art would be a lot more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/77 "2014-07-14T19:01:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You can not make the argument that “original sin” and “Christ’s redemption”, is the true word of god, if, you reject Noah’s Ark and the Garden of Eden. Oral history and multiple translations only weigh in against the veracity of any part of the bible, not, in favor of it. I feel for you guy. I’ve tried similar questions and have gotten about as far as you have in getting answers. Noah’s Ark is not very important, really. The Garden of Eden, to Christians however, is something else. In Hebrew School no one even pretended that this actually happened, it was not in our “history” book. It was written as a Just-So story about having to work, the pain of childbirth, death, and snakes. (And clothes also, I suppose.) But Christians needed a reason for man’s sinful nature that involved a choice, not God making us that way. If there was no father and mother of us all, and no choice to sin, then there is no need of redemption. I don’t think groups like the Catholics who now admit that there was no literal Garden of Eden have addressed this problem very well. Sounds less like inspiration from God and more what a politician says when caught with his hand in the till. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/78 "2014-07-14T19:06:32Z")
At least extreme religious nuts are honest and consistent enough to believe all the nutty stuff. Moderate religious people give the impression of being reasonably intelligent people, too smart to believe all of it, but too afraid to reject the whole lot. Many moderate Christian beliefs that exist today were different 50 years ago. In another 50 years, they’ll be different again as the moderately religious redraw their lines once again according to the prevailing theories of what is acceptable at the time. Moderate religion is a complete mess of doublethink, question-begging and intellectual cowardice. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/79 "2014-07-14T19:06:25Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > This is one of those no win discussions. Atheists and agnostics believe all religious people live breathe and accept the most extreme interpretations of their religion. > > For some strange reason its impossible for critics to recognise that most religious people are moderate and its more a matter of culture than to die for. I exist you try to read the OP the next time and not respond to what you think atheists think. The OP addressed exactly those religious people who don’t accept a literal interpretation of the Bible. (They may be wrong, but at least they are consistent.) Is the problem that you can’t even bear to face the question? The question again was: we understand that many people do not think the entire Bible is literally true. Good for them. How do they decide which parts to accept and which parts to consider allegory or myth. The best answer I’ve seen so far in this thread is because it feels right. Got a better one? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/80 "2014-07-14T19:08:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Ahem. The point of the OP was asking what rules you are playing by. > We know what rules the literalists use, but the OP was not about them. > Moderate religionists are usually more moral than the God they believe in, at least as rules in the Bible go. That’s to be respected. But how do you justify that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality when the Bible clearly says the opposite. And not in an allegory. Clearly people do it by using their more advanced 21st century ethics and thus assume that God couldn’t possibly be so primitive. How do you know that? > It is not that people back then in general couldn’t accept that there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex - just look at Aristotle. > This whole thread has been those who pick and choose (for good ethical, non-religious reasons) which parts of the Bible to accept being in total denial that they pick and choose irrationally. Gay this, homosexual that. It may come as a surprise to you, but not everybody use homosexuality as the universal yardstick. Personally I can go weeks or months between giving it a single though. It’s quite common for Christians to believe the Old Testament has been succeeded by the New Testament, and to believe the Ten Commandments, non-pork eating, circumcision and all the rest, have been replaced by Jesus’ one overriding commandment: Love. A love that includes homosexual. For the rest of the commandments of the Old Testament, you could take it up with the Jews and Muslims. They seem to put more stock in it. > [@Voyager](#): > > So, what rules do you use, besides this feels right to me and that feels wrong to me? There’re not really any rules in Christianity. But as a guideline go with the stuff that promotes love. The rest is just stuffing. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/81 "2014-07-14T19:08:16Z")
Voyager, In which movement were you raised? Do you know what the other movements say about similar biblical events? What biblical events were you taught as historical? The binding of Isaac? Moses receiving the laws on mount Sinai? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/82 "2014-07-14T19:08:16Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > At least extreme religious nuts are honest and consistent enough to believe all the nutty stuff. They don’t believe all the nutty stuff. They’re bullshitting themselves (or you) in a bid for moral superiority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=5)