# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/803 "2015-04-23T01:13:28Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- I don’t really care what the christians where you live do or do not do > 2- The discrepancy between OT doctrine and NT doctrine is not a selling point for the validity of your religion AH Ah, now we get it. You do not care what other christians think, you seem to want to tar us with the same fundy brush as your family and neighbours. > [@Robert163](#): > > 1- how does Augustinian original sin differ from original sin, or, is it the same thing > 2- so the rapture is just something that got made up. interesting. most christians operate as if it is actual christian doctrine. The rapture was made up by a bunch of people and holds almost ZERO validity outside a very narrow but loud bunch of American Christians. > [@Robert163](#): > > I’m not sure you can really determine that. Some may be more preferable to a Secular POV but I think they are all equally invalid. For someone to say “I think there is probably some type of god up there but I can’t tell you what kind” I guess I wouldn’t have much of anything to object too. But when they say “God exists and he lives on top of a mountain and he hates people that are lazy” I’ve got to say they have no valid justification at all for making such statements. Again MOST Christians around the world hold the the view that “I think there is probably some type of god up there but I can’t tell you what kind”. I suggest that you read up on Liberal Christianity, Christian humanism and Christian atheism. They all use the word Christian as I do as it is what has guided a lot of our development over the last 2,000 years. A lot of what you are seeing in your local area is a direct result of people rejecting The Enlightenment and it’s effect on the church. Again maybe a history lesson is required for you to grasp these concepts. Also maybe have a read of some of John Shelby Spong a man who has his critics but like me he sees the idea of God as complete selfless love and compassion for all. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/804 "2015-04-23T01:17:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Yes, it did, but all we have to go on is the NT and attached writings (gnossitic gospels, etc) as well as a limited historical record And passed-on beliefs and traditions, and personal revelation, and shared experiences, and anything else that every single other religion has that isn’t tightly controlled by some governing body. Some of those don’t even have books. > [@](#): > > Then what does Why does something have to? It doesn’t work that way for plenty of other religions, so why this one? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/805 "2015-04-23T01:18:14Z")
I’m starting to get the impression that Robert has no desire to debate – he simply wants a “gotchya!” type of argument. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/806 "2015-04-23T01:27:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Of course there can be (potentially) ideas and comments Jesus made that were not recorded into the bible. > 2- But you can not say proposition XYZ is something Jesus would support unless it actually got recorded > 3- why are you ignoring the analogy about Marx > 4- if Jesus was so super duper all powerful perfect, how is it possible that part of his message got left out of the bible 2- Sure I can. If it is recorded and commented upon by several early writers but did not happen to appear in a specific book selected as scripture and it has continued to be professed for the last 1900+ years, it remains a valid Christian concept. 3- Because it is irrelevant. You are trying to change the topic from “what is a valid belief?” to “what did Jesus say?”. 4- There is no claim in scripture, (your criteria), that Jesus expressed every idea that Christians would need to know in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/807 "2015-04-23T01:29:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m starting to get the impression that Robert has no desire to debate – he simply wants a “gotchya!” type of argument. That works better when you understand what you’re arguing about. But poke-it-with-a-stick can be fun, and the rest of us might learn something the peculiar beliefs people construct when they are only partially exposed to a concept. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/808 "2015-04-23T01:32:24Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > AH Ah, now we get it. You do not care what other christians think, you seem to want to tar us with the same fundy brush as your family and neighbours. > > I suggest that you read up on Liberal Christianity, Christian humanism and Christian atheism. They all use the word Christian as I do as it is what has guided a lot of our development over the last 2,000 years. > > A lot of what you are seeing in your local area is a direct result of people rejecting The Enlightenment and it’s effect on the church. Again maybe a history lesson is required for you to grasp these concepts. > > Also maybe have a read of some of John Shelby Spong a man who has his critics but like me he sees the idea of God as complete selfless love and compassion for all. Imagine the following scenario: 50 years before the Civil War in America John Jackson writes a book called “How To Be A Southern Gentleman”: 10% of the book is on the actual physical methods used to beat and intimidate your slaves 20% of the book is about how to maintain and supervise your slaves in general 30% is on farming practices 10% is on financial matters related to farming (and slaves) 10% is the proper role of a subjugated southern housewife 10% is a vigorous physical exercise curriculum and diet 10% is on how to be an actual southern gentleman Now, it’s 2015 and I am an African American and you tell me how great this book is. I point out to you that 50% of it I consider morally repulsive, 30% of the book has no bearing on my life at all and only 10% has any practical worth but I can’t get around all the horrible 50% when I am holding the book in my hands. And you say “But Robert!!! I only read the 10%, you are supposed to ignore all the rest!!!” How do you think I would respond? (I mean this in all seriousness and with no antagonism at all was my intent, trying to get you to see how I see the bible) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/809 "2015-04-23T01:34:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m starting to get the impression that Robert has no desire to debate – he simply wants a “gotchya!” type of argument. No, we are stuck on one singular point, its been a massive distraction from the overall topic ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/810 "2015-04-23T01:42:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > 2- Sure I can. If it is recorded and commented upon by several early writers but did not happen to appear in a specific book selected as scripture and it has continued to be professed for the last 1900+ years, it remains a valid Christian concept. > 3- Because it is irrelevant. You are trying to change the topic from “what is a valid belief?” to “what did Jesus say?”. > 4- There is no claim in scripture, (your criteria), that Jesus expressed every idea that Christians would need to know in the future. The analogy to Marx is 100% spot on accurate. You just won’t admit it. That there could be other sources of Christs words and actions is a concept I am already familiar with, accounts of his family life, gnostic gospels, etc. Wether those should be “cannon” to the christian faith, I don’t know, but you could make the argument that they were, for sure. What you can’t do, however, is give Jesus Christs opinion on Abortion, for example, because he never specifically mentions it, though, I presume, he would be against it. But we can’t say for sure. (Unless there is a chapter/verse I am not familiar with.) ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/811 "2015-04-23T01:58:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > (I mean this in all seriousness and with no antagonism at all was my intent, trying to get you to see how I see the bible) Hey I think we get how you see the bible, it is a very narrow, fundy type of ill-informed view. However given the environment you seem to have been raised in not surprising. I don’t see it that way and never have. I thought you would like to try and understand how other people view Christianity but you seem stuck on your view and cannot accept that there are other ways to practice. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/812 "2015-04-23T02:02:28Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > The analogy to Marx is 100% spot on accurate. For some totally separate discussion, perhaps. However, since you are simply avoiding the actual point that I addressed in order to return to your polemics, I am going to let you wander off on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/813 "2015-04-23T02:05:59Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Hey I think we get how you see the bible, it is a very narrow, fundy type of ill-informed view. However given the environment you seem to have been raised in not surprising. > > I don’t see it that way and never have. > > I thought you would like to try and understand how other people view Christianity but you seem stuck on your view and cannot accept that there are other ways to practice. Wow, no it’s not narrow or ill formed. All of the things I object too come directly from the bible. No offense but just because — you — don’t want to focus on hell and condemnation and war and genocide and slavery, doesn’t mean they are not there, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/814 "2015-04-23T02:07:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > For some totally separate discussion, perhaps. > > However, since you are simply avoiding the actual point that I addressed in order to return to your polemics, I am going to let you wander off on your own. It’s exactly the same, the Marx Analogy, and nice dodge on the abortion issue. Also, I have not ignored nor evaded any of the points you made. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/815 "2015-04-23T02:27:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > . . . Jonah living in the belly of a whale and Daniel surviving a burning furnace were stated as first hand accounts and strait out facts. Actually, the strongest evidence today is that the book of Daniel was written as fiction. It wasn’t just allegory; it was like a Len Deighton novel. It was written long after the period in which its events are set. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/816 "2015-04-23T02:32:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it possible for _any_ Christian belief to be invalid and, if so, how? When my sister was in Sunday School, the kids were taught, “When we die, we go up into the sky and become stars.” This is a “Christian belief” because it was taught in a Christian school. But it’s invalid, and, in fact, not even the people teaching it believed it. It was a pretty myth. It’s right up there with “Every time X, it makes Baby Jesus weep.” That’s a “Christian belief” that is invalid, and, in fact, not believed in the first place. (You can’t get much more invalid than “Oh, yeah, I just made that up.”) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/817 "2015-04-23T02:35:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > . . . Now, it’s 2015 and I am an African American and you tell me how great this book is. I point out to you that 50% of it I consider morally repulsive, 30% of the book has no bearing on my life at all and only 10% has any practical worth but I can’t get around all the horrible 50% when I am holding the book in my hands. And you say “But Robert!!! I only read the 10%, you are supposed to ignore all the rest!!!” . . . So long as we distance ourselves from the bad parts, then, yes, that’s valid. Otherwise…do you reject the validity of the U.S. Constitution because it embraced slavery before being amended? ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/818 "2015-04-23T02:46:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Wow, no it’s not narrow or ill formed. All of the things I object too come directly from the bible. No offense but just because — you — don’t want to focus on hell and condemnation and war and genocide and slavery, doesn’t mean they are not there, does it? No it is narrow and ill informed, the bible whilst the central book of Christianity is not the be all and end all. It is the human interpretation and debate of the ideas contained within it that informs what it is to be a Christian. Christians just like anyone else evolve ideas over time, even the fundamental views you express are recent interpretations of the text. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/819 "2015-04-23T02:56:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Actually, the strongest evidence today is that the book of Daniel was written as fiction. It wasn’t just allegory; it was like a Len Deighton novel. It was written long after the period in which its events are set. Thats ok, it’s all fiction ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/820 "2015-04-23T02:59:14Z")
I’m not sure that the genocide and slavery even pose much of a moral problem given God’s nature and the times. The slavery of the Bible is probably more humane than any other form of slavery practiced in the world. It’s important to remember that the idea that slavery is wrong is a liberal Western idea. Is there any religion that specifically forbids slavery? The genocide of peoples the Israelites conquered goes back to God’s view of sin. God cannot abide sin and if sin infects a community to a great enough extent, there’s no way to eradicate it other than to wipe every trace of the offending civilization from the face of the Earth. Before the Israelites, God did this himself to Sodom and Gomorrah, and before that, to the Earth itself. From the human perspective, this is really awful stuff. But a God doesn’t have to be what we expect him to be. In a world where religion is supposed to make us feel good about ourselves, God must be good the way we would want him to be good. But in a world where a real God actually exists, he could certainly be a very hard God with teachings that are hard to accept. Now from our perspective, any person who incites genocide because he claimed God told him to kill those people is an evil person and frankly shouldn’t be believed. But if God spoke so everyone could hear, saying, “Kill every man, woman, child, and animal, leave no stone on top of another stone”, then it’s happening. And we can hate God all we want for it, but that’s about as useful as a computer program hating its writer. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/821 "2015-04-23T03:07:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Wow, no it’s not narrow or ill formed. All of the things I object too come directly from the bible. No offense but just because — you — don’t want to focus on hell and condemnation and war and genocide and slavery, doesn’t mean they are not there, does it? And they were written in a different time – historical context, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/822 "2015-04-23T03:14:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > So long as we distance ourselves from the bad parts, then, yes, that’s valid. Wow… so you think the KKK is a perfectly valid organization, as long as they don’t actually kill any black people? You know, the love for their kids they have is “swell” and they have great family BBQ’s > [@](#): > > Otherwise…do you reject the validity of the U.S. Constitution because it embraced slavery before being amended? Well, I don’t have a framed copy of the constitution hanging on my wall and “American Democratic Values” are three words that never come out of my mouth in succession. as far as the Founding Fathers they were almost exclusively self serving hypocrites and greedy and wealthy and entitled. Did you know that 12 out of our first 16 presidents owned slaves? Fun fact. It makes me so damn proud of the guys who wrote the constitution. > [@sisu](#): > > No it is narrow and ill informed, the bible whilst the central book of Christianity is not the be all and end all. It is the human interpretation and debate of the ideas contained within it that informs what it is to be a Christian. > > Christians just like anyone else evolve ideas over time, even the fundamental views you express are recent interpretations of the text. Ok, but you’re not actually going to deny hell and condemnation and all the rape, murder,war, genocide, and slavery make up the majority of the actual text, are you?No, you’re going to call my opinion narrow and ill formed because I won’t ignore it in the same way that you do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=42)