# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/823 "2015-04-23T03:24:59Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And they were written in a different time – historical context, you know? Do you see me objecting to slavery in The Illiad? Marcus Aurelius, one of the most noble and principled philosophers of all time, owned slaves. Supposedly, the Son Of God (Jesus) or God’s direct representative to the Israelites (Moses) should know better. Philosophy vs the Word Of God. Context. Marcus Aurelius [http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/marcus\_aurelius.html](http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/marcus_aurelius.html) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/824 "2015-04-23T03:29:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not sure that the genocide and slavery even pose much of a moral problem given God’s nature and the times. The slavery of the Bible is probably more humane than any other form of slavery practiced in the world. It’s important to remember that the idea that slavery is wrong is a liberal Western idea. Is there any religion that specifically forbids slavery? > > The genocide of peoples the Israelites conquered goes back to God’s view of sin. God cannot abide sin and if sin infects a community to a great enough extent, there’s no way to eradicate it other than to wipe every trace of the offending civilization from the face of the Earth. Before the Israelites, God did this himself to Sodom and Gomorrah, and before that, to the Earth itself. > > From the human perspective, this is really awful stuff. But a God doesn’t have to be what we expect him to be. In a world where religion is supposed to make us feel good about ourselves, God must be good the way we would want him to be good. But in a world where a real God actually exists, he could certainly be a very hard God with teachings that are hard to accept. > > Now from our perspective, any person who incites genocide because he claimed God told him to kill those people is an evil person and frankly shouldn’t be believed. But if God spoke so everyone could hear, saying, “Kill every man, woman, child, and animal, leave no stone on top of another stone”, then it’s happening. And we can hate God all we want for it, but that’s about as useful as a computer program hating its writer. I was going to try to come up with a response and debate several points with you (and agree with a couple) but your last paragraph is so thoroughly psychotic and evil that I no longer have the desire to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/825 "2015-04-23T03:41:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Blue laws for one. Care to be specific, and also to explain how the particular blue law you highlight is “based on the truth of the Bible”? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/826 "2015-04-23T03:51:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > There are only two possibilities for any given claim: > > 1- It is true > 2- It is false > > If you call yourself a “moderate” it simply means you know the bible is FALSE but you want to keep pretending like it has value This is rubbish of the highest caliber. The [Fables of Aesop](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop%27s_Fables) are specifically labeled as fables and, yet, they have value. As I already showed you, part of the Bible was specifically labled as parable and, yet, those parables have value. Whether the story within the literature in question actually occurred has no bearing on its literary or moral (lesson) value. Also, as already pointed out to you in this thread, Biblical literalism is a recent concept. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/827 "2015-04-23T03:52:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Care to be specific, and also to explain how the particular blue law you highlight is “based on the truth of the Bible”? Blue Laws have to do with liquor sales banned on sunday and stores in general being open on Sunday. Although it is not a law, several of the stores in the small town I live in are actually closed on Sunday. Well, some of the privately owned ones are. None of the chain or franchise stores are. In any decent sized city you would never find a store closed on Sunday… only in small redneck towns like this are such things possible. But apart from Homosexuality and marriage and connected issues there are no real laws or would be laws affected by Christianity. It’s more the overwhelming ignorance and conformity of living in a small Christian town like this that’s annoying… it’s kind of smothering also, particularly when combined with the amount of latent racism that exists here. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/828 "2015-04-23T03:54:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You can stop there. Anything else beyond that point is a rationalization. It is not logical to call yourself a christian. Who died and made you the arbiter of who is and is not Christian? Seems to me I saw this question somewhere not so long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/829 "2015-04-23T03:57:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Who am I? Someone who values consistency. I’m going to have to go with your posts in this thread alone disprove that statement. So, to be consistent, you have to assign a zero value to your posting history on this site as your post which I just quoted is false. > [@](#): > > I guess your worldview has no need for it. Nor yours, evidently. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/830 "2015-04-23T03:57:22Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It’s more the overwhelming ignorance and conformity of living in a small Christian town like this that’s annoying… it’s kind of smothering also, particularly when combined with the amount of latent racism that exists here. yep that’s the heart of the matter, a lot of christians are live and let live and a lot of us support supposedly non christian positions on abortion, gay marriage etc. In some of our views Jesus was meant to show us what pure selfless love was al about. He didn’t judge and either should we. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/831 "2015-04-23T04:01:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, I’m under the impression that the parts you find personally relevant are teh parts you don’t think are fiction. The rest, fiction. You are now simply making things up yourself and pretending that is what others, such as, in this case, **Relevant Threshold** believe. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/832 "2015-04-23T04:05:45Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > This is rubbish of the highest caliber. The [Fables of Aesop](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop%27s_Fables) are specifically labeled as fables and, yet, they have value. As I already showed you, part of the Bible was specifically labled as parable and, yet, those parables have value. Whether the story within the literature in question actually occurred has no bearing on its literary or moral (lesson) value. Also, as already pointed out to you in this thread, Biblical literalism is a recent concept. 1- I never said there weren’t parables in the bible. I never said there were not parables in the bible that have value. My objection is when the Flood/Noah’s Ark gets labeled as “metaphor” once it is scientifically proven to be impossible. 2- So, it’s your contention that a illiterate French peasant, Francois, in AD 1274, where the Church has been the moral authority in his life ever since the day he was born, and he’s probably never been exposed to any other religion/religious way of thinking, nor seen an Elephant or a Zebra or Kangaroo, that this guy, this illiterate dirt farmer, who’s probably never been more than 100 miles away from the spot where he is born, you are telling me that this guy, when Friar John Brown tells him the story of Noah’s ark, Francois is going to say to Friar John “Man, you’re crazy!!! No way could all of those animals fit onto that boat!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/833 "2015-04-23T04:07:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m going to have to go with your posts in this thread alone disprove that statement. So, to be consistent, you have to assign a zero value to your posting history on this site as your post which I just quoted is false. I have no idea what you are talking about. BTW, are you a christain or are you just playing devils advocate here? > [@](#): > > You are now simply making things up yourself and pretending that is what others, such as, in this case, Relevant Threshold believe. Yeah, I admit, on that one I was stretching things a bit… ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/834 "2015-04-23T04:08:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1-If you are not a Christian why are you defending a false set of ideals Maybe she feels a need to fight some ignorance, such as the ignorant idea that “literally true and only literally true can be of value”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/835 "2015-04-23T04:15:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I do in fact know what they mean and I think you have deliberately missed my point You’re doing rather an excellent job of showing that you really do not know what those words mean. Also, neither I nor the others in this thread who have attempted to show you your mistakes have missed your (mistaken) point at all. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/836 "2015-04-23T04:16:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > because the claims they make are scientifically impossible. And this proves that those parts were originally not intended as parable, metaphor, or allegory…how exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/837 "2015-04-23T04:18:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Maybe she feels a need to fight some ignorance, such as the ignorant idea that “literally true and only literally true can be of value”. Wow!!! I never said parables and metaphors aren’t valuable. They are incredibly valuable. The engage both sides of the brain, they engage the imagination, the bypass the overtly critical censor, that analytical, critical part of the mind that is applied to factual statements. The are also able to condense information and simplify complex ideas and components. And they work equally well using real examples as the do when employing clearly fictitious examples. My objection - as stated - is calling Noah’s Ark a metaphor _after_ science has proved it to be physically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/838 "2015-04-23T04:23:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And this proves that those parts were originally not intended as parable, metaphor, or allegory…how exactly? Because, unlike you, when the text _says_ Jonah lived in the belly of a whale for three days I take it to mean exactly what it says. It makes no disclaimer otherwise. However, when Jesus says gut off your hand if you are tempted to steal, that in in a clearly allegorical voice. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/839 "2015-04-23T04:31:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Thats ok, it’s all fiction No, not exactly. Much of it is “myth.” That’s quite different from fiction. Fiction is intentional. Len Deighton knows damn well there’s no such person as Harry Palmer. But the authors of Genesis and Exodus didn’t know, in that same way, that there were no such persons as Jacob or Moses. Hesiod didn’t know that there were no such persons as Ajax and Achilles, and didn’t know there were no such gods as Zeus and Apollo. In contrast, J.R.R. Tolkien did know that there was no such goddess as Elbereth. (What’s particularly amusing about this is that there are real-life modern Elbereth worshippers. Weird, huh?) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/840 "2015-04-23T04:34:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Wow… so you think the KKK is a perfectly valid organization, as long as they don’t actually kill any black people? . . . Nope. Do you really want to play this game? “So you think it’s okay [odious and offensive and insulting comparison]?” That’s not a particularly valid debate technique. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/841 "2015-04-23T04:34:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > No, not exactly. Much of it is “myth.” That’s quite different from fiction. Fiction is intentional. Len Deighton knows damn well there’s no such person as Harry Palmer. But the authors of Genesis and Exodus didn’t know, in that same way, that there were no such persons as Jacob or Moses. > > Hesiod didn’t know that there were no such persons as Ajax and Achilles, and didn’t know there were no such gods as Zeus and Apollo. In contrast, J.R.R. Tolkien did know that there was no such goddess as Elbereth. > > (What’s particularly amusing about this is that there are real-life modern Elbereth worshippers. Weird, huh?) Right. And whomever wrote the Book of Jonah obviously made up the part about Jonah living in the belly of the whale, and obviously and intentionally knew they were telling a lie. Or, if they simply recorded oral history, whoever made up the story to begin with knew that it was a lie (fiction). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/842 "2015-04-23T04:35:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Maybe she feels a need to fight some ignorance, such as the ignorant idea that “literally true and only literally true can be of value”. Bingo. I may no longer be a practicing Christian, but I was brought up Catholic, went through nine years of Catholic school, and then later spent three and a half years at a Catholic college. (I’d consider myself a “cultural Catholic”, as one person said before). The Jonah story was never presented to us as literal. > [@](#): > > It’s more the overwhelming ignorance and conformity of living in a small Christian town like this that’s annoying… it’s kind of smothering also, particularly when combined with the amount of latent racism that exists here. And your experiences obviously color your perceptions here. Likewise, the rest of us have been exposed to other traditions and schools of learning. (Around here you’re more likely to get grief for saying you don’t like the Steelers than for saying you’re an atheist.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=43)