# Have a hard time respecting the moderately religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053 "2014-07-14T05:29:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/883 "2015-04-23T08:34:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It’s exactly the same, the Marx Analogy, and nice dodge on the abortion issue. Also, I have not ignored nor evaded any of the points you made. You wish to keep redirecting the discussion to your general polemic against belief. That’s fine, but in the midst of your spiel, you made the nonsense claim that certain beliefs were not valid if they were not found in scripture. You have continuously danced around the error of that claim and your Marx analogy and your question regarding abortion are simply more efforts to avoid addressing the fact that you have provided no reason to accept your claim about validity being tied to scripture. I have demonstrated my point and you keep haring off on irrelevancies. Your dodging away is duly noted and your nonsense claim that I am “dodging” your red herrings is duly dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/884 "2015-04-23T09:01:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You wish to keep redirecting the discussion to your general polemic against belief. That’s fine, but in the midst of your spiel, you made the nonsense claim that certain beliefs were not valid if they were not found in scripture. You have continuously danced around the error of that claim and your Marx analogy and your question regarding abortion are simply more efforts to avoid addressing the fact that you have provided no reason to accept your claim about validity being tied to scripture. > I have demonstrated my point and you keep haring off on irrelevancies. Your dodging away is duly noted and your nonsense claim that I am “dodging” your red herrings is duly dismissed. Well there is a limit to the length of time one can reasonably argue about semantics and Red Herrings. We have surpassed that. Let’s give it one more shot: “you made the nonsense claim that certain beliefs were not valid if they were not found in scripture” Let me rephrase that for the sake of clarity. You can not attribute any particular claim or idea to — christ — unless you can actually point to the scripture where he said it or acted in some manner accordingly. The idea that you would want to ascribe ideas, christian principles and christian doctrine that is not specifically from the words/deeds of christ, seems to me, to be incredibly bizarre but if that is where you choose set your parameters, well, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/885 "2015-04-23T09:56:36Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You wish to keep redirecting the discussion to your general polemic against belief. That’s fine, but in the midst of your spiel, you made the nonsense claim that certain beliefs were not valid if they were not found in scripture. You have continuously danced around the error of that claim and your Marx analogy and your question regarding abortion are simply more efforts to avoid addressing the fact that you have provided no reason to accept your claim about validity being tied to scripture. > I have demonstrated my point and you keep haring off on irrelevancies. Your dodging away is duly noted and your nonsense claim that I am “dodging” your red herrings is duly dismissed. On second thought, I disagree, I was trying to be agreeable but I can not let my comments stand. If you want to say proposition “XYZ” is a christian principle and Christ did not say it, do it, or in some way endorse it, then it simply is not a christian principle. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/886 "2015-04-23T10:18:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You wish to keep redirecting the discussion to your general polemic against belief. That’s fine, but in the midst of your spiel, you made the nonsense claim that certain beliefs were not valid if they were not found in scripture. You have continuously danced around the error of that claim and your Marx analogy and your question regarding abortion are simply more efforts to avoid addressing the fact that you have provided no reason to accept your claim about validity being tied to scripture. > I have demonstrated my point and you keep haring off on irrelevancies. Your dodging away is duly noted and your nonsense claim that I am “dodging” your red herrings is duly dismissed. I’ll go one step further: Criticizing the way I criticize christinaity is pointless anyway. Until you can prove, undeniably and irrefutably, that christ died and rose from the dead, all your criticism of my criticism is nothing but a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/887 "2015-04-23T10:24:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > You know, my problem is I am looking at this from a modern perspective. Actually, you’re really not doing that. What you’re doing is dictating what people long ago must have believed. > [@](#): > > I am accustomed to the idea that Donkey’s don’t talk, so I would never make the claim that a Donkey said something to me. Got news for you: the folks back when that story was first created were accustomed to the idea that donkeys cannot talk. That’s why it’s a literary device. > [@](#): > > If I wanted to add dramatic effect to my story I’d provably say “I was riding on a horse through the pouring rain for six hours.” Well, you’re not the one who created the narrative in question and you’re not the one who knew the narrator’s audience. > [@](#): > > Well, actually, I wouldn’t say that, I am almost compulsively honest, but I can see how person riding a horse in the rain for several hours might say that. You really cannot see why the author of a fictional story would use a talking animal as a plot device? What? You’ve never read Aesop’s stuff? You’re not familiar with _Animal Farm_? Not the perfect example but you see the point. [/quote] I see that you’re flailing in this thread and dictating stuff the way you want people to have acted long ago and that you’re putting words in others’ mouths. > [@](#): > > So back when people had no scientific knowledge Actually, people did have scientific knowledge. They just didn’t have the level of technology we’re familiar with today. There were some rather amazing feats way back then. > [@](#): > > and people regularly believed supernatural fantastic events actually occurred, in such a time I can see that if you were on a long donkey ride and fell asleep, had a dream, and were jolted awake, you might somehow think the donkey spoke to you. Now you’re doing a better job with your fiction. Mind you, I disagree with the point of that little story of yours, but at least you put a point in the story. > [@](#): > > Similarly, if you were recording the story of Jonah and it was reported to you that Jonah took “a really fast ship” you might change the story to “belly of a fish” if such outlandish claims were already commonly accepted and repeated in your society. Or the narrator originally used the literary device of a large fish swallowing Jonah and the narrator did that for a purpose known to him and his audience. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/888 "2015-04-23T10:29:15Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Actually, you’re really not doing that. What you’re doing is dictating what people long ago must have believed. > > Got news for you: the folks back when that story was first created were accustomed to the idea that donkeys cannot talk. That’s why it’s a literary device. > > Well, you’re not the one who created the narrative in question and you’re not the one who knew the narrator’s audience. > > You really cannot see why the author of a fictional story would use a talking animal as a plot device? What? You’ve never read Aesop’s stuff? You’re not familiar with _Animal Farm_? > > Not the perfect example but you see the point. > [@](#): > > I see that you’re flailing in this thread and dictating stuff the way you want people to have acted long ago and that you’re putting words in others’ mouths. > > Actually, people did have scientific knowledge. They just didn’t have the level of technology we’re familiar with today. There were some rather amazing feats way back then. > > Now you’re doing a better job with your fiction. Mind you, I disagree with the point of that little story of yours, but at least you put a point in the story. > > Or the narrator originally used the literary device of a large fish swallowing Jonah and the narrator did that for a purpose known to him and his audience. 1- So your point then is the bible is nothing but made up stories and should not be considered to be “the truth” 2- We will save the debate for whether a non industrial non scientific society believed in supernatural claims for another day ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/889 "2015-04-23T10:30:58Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > “you made the nonsense claim that certain beliefs were not valid if they were not found in scripture” > > Let me rephrase that for the sake of clarity. You can not attribute any particular claim or idea to — christ — unless you can actually point to the scripture where he said it or acted in some manner accordingly. Now this is a valid point–not the one you made, of course, but legitimate in its way. Of course, then you had to get silly, again: > [@Robert163](#): > > What makes a religion “valid”. The idea that you would want to ascribe ideas, christian principles and christian doctrine that is not specifically from the words/deeds of christ, seems to me, to be incredibly bizarre but if that is where you choose set your parameters, well, go ahead. [/QUOTE] > [@Robert163](#): > > On second thought, I disagree, I was trying to be agreeable but I can not let my comments stand. If you want to say proposition “XYZ” is a christian principle and Christ did not say it, do it, or in some way endorse it, then it simply is not a christian principle. Your personal inability to recognize certain things is not my problem. In the time that Jesus spent with his disciples, he would have laid down certain principles and guidelines. Once he was gone and the disciples began to interact with each other and with the growing community, they would have faced situations not covered by explicit statements–statements he would have had no reason to make because a wandering preacher and his students do not face the same issues as a fixed community. Based on principles he had laid down, the nascent Christian community would have developed expanded teachings that were true to his principles, but were not found in his statements. What is bizarre is your belief that there must be an explicit citation to Jesus for every single belief and practice of the Christian community. You are welcome to that belief, but it is not logical and it is certainly not based on facts. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/890 "2015-04-23T10:33:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’ll go one step further: > > Criticizing the way I criticize christinaity is pointless anyway. Until you can prove, undeniably and irrefutably, that christ died and rose from the dead, all your criticism of my criticism is nothing but a red herring. Nah. You are here witnessing for your particular atheist evangelization project. I have no need to assert any particular truth of Christianity. (And I have not done so.) In the context of your little polemic, however, I have absolute freedom to point out your own errors of logic and fact. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/891 "2015-04-23T10:44:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’ll go one step further: > > Criticizing the way I criticize christinaity is pointless anyway. Until you can prove, undeniably and irrefutably, that christ died and rose from the dead, all your criticism of my criticism is nothing but a red herring. As an atheist, I’ll say **nonsense**. There is no obligation on the part of Christians to prove anything to you or to me. As for your idea that one must point to specific words of Jesus as the basis of any Christian beliefs, I find that bizarre, for several reasons: 1. You and I aren’t in the club and don’t want to be in the club. Why do you think we get to write the club’s bylaws? 2. You and I believe most of the things written in the gospels are untrue anyway. Why would pointing to specific words that someone made up for Jesus to say be a better basis for their religious beliefs than using the penumbra of Jesus’s made up words? 3. Christianity has a multi-millennia history, and it’s NEVER been defined in the way you propose. As for your “modern perspective,” well yeah, by definition it’s a modern perspective, your living in modern times and having a perspective. However, it’s not the only modern perspective, nor is it a mainstream or characteristic modern perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/892 "2015-04-23T10:52:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Now this is a valid point–not the one you made, of course, but legitimate in its way. > Of course, then you had to get silly, again: > The idea that you would want to ascribe ideas, christian principles and christian doctrine that is not specifically from the words/deeds of christ, seems to me, to be incredibly bizarre but if that is where you choose set your parameters, well, go ahead. > > Your personal inability to recognize certain things is not my problem. > > In the time that Jesus spent with his disciples, he would have laid down certain principles and guidelines. Once he was gone and the disciples began to interact with each other and with the growing community, they would have faced situations not covered by explicit statements–statements he would have had no reason to make because a wandering preacher and his students do not face the same issues as a fixed community. Based on principles he had laid down, the nascent Christian community would have developed expanded teachings that were true to his principles, but were not found in his statements. All this is, of course, true. But you have no way of definitively stating that proposition XYZ was actually a principle set forth by christ instead of a principle most likely set forth by christ. heck, proposition XYZ may very well be an actual principle stated by christ. But you still cant say that it was until you prove that it was. Not that you would ever admit it, but that is actually the way you make a factual statement, by backing it up with facts. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Nah. You are here witnessing for your particular atheist evangelization project. I have no need to assert any particular truth of Christianity. (And I have not done so.) In the context of your little polemic, however, I have absolute freedom to point out your own errors of logic and fact. Oh yes I most certainly am!!! And how convenient it is for you that (1)you feel no need to assert any particular truth about the death and resurrection for christ, when, (2) there is nothing to back up such a claim. It’s funny how the two of those work together, isn’t it??? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/893 "2015-04-23T11:00:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > ah so you’re a snarky and insulting coward That’s one that’ll earn you a warning, Robert163. You may not - under any circumstances - insult another poster on the SDMB outside the BBQ Pit. If you must insult another poster, please do so there. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/894 "2015-04-23T11:02:16Z")
With the above said, everyone will calm down and leave the personalities out of it. Again, remember: attack the posts, not the poster. It shouldn’t be all that hard. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/895 "2015-04-23T11:02:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As an atheist, I’ll say **nonsense**. There is no obligation on the part of Christians to prove anything to you or to me. There most certainly is. The same way an astrologer is required to back up their claims or any such situation. If you say it’s true be prepared to prove it. > [@](#): > > As for your idea that one must point to specific words of Jesus as the basis of any Christian beliefs, I find that bizarre, for several reasons: > > 1. You and I aren’t in the club and don’t want to be in the club. Why do you think we get to write the club’s bylaws? we don’t. it’s an objective standard. > [@](#): > > 1. You and I believe most of the things written in the gospels are untrue anyway. Why would pointing to specific words that someone made up for Jesus to say be a better basis for their religious beliefs than using the penumbra of Jesus’s made up words? Also, I really don’t understand what you mean in point #2. > [@](#): > > 1. Christianity has a multi-millennia history, and it’s NEVER been defined in the way you propose. people keep repeating this as if it had some great amount of significance… i’m dealing with the way it is viewed now. why do you think it matters how people viewed it 500 years ago? > [@](#): > > As for your “modern perspective,” well yeah, by definition it’s a modern perspective, your living in modern times and having a perspective. However, it’s not the only modern perspective, nor is it a mainstream or characteristic modern perspective. What? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/896 "2015-04-23T11:25:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As for your “modern perspective,” well yeah, by definition it’s a modern perspective, your living in modern times and having a perspective. However, it’s not the only modern perspective, nor is it a mainstream or characteristic modern perspective. Oh, the literalist view. Ok, what about the 46% of Americans who believe the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old. That would be a literal view of the bible, wouldn’t it? [http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/897 "2015-04-23T11:42:14Z")
Whoa! That many believe that? No wonder some politicians feel pretty safe not believing in evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/898 "2015-04-23T13:06:28Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- So your point then is the bible is nothing but made up stories and should not be considered to be “the truth” That is not an honest portrayal of my post. > [@](#): > > 2- We will save the debate for whether a non industrial non scientific society believed in supernatural claims for another day Nope. What we will do is [follow the moderator instructions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=755176). ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/899 "2015-04-23T13:34:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That is not an honest portrayal of my post. Actually I was being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/900 "2015-04-23T13:38:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Oh, the literalist view. Ok, what about the 46% of Americans who believe the earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old. That would be a literal view of the bible, wouldn’t it? > > [http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/hold-creationist-view-human-origins.aspx) Unless i missed something, that survey asked about the origin of man, not the age of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/901 "2015-04-23T13:40:47Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Unless i missed something, that survey asked about the origin of man, not the age of the earth. From the first line of the article: Forty-six percent of Americans believe in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053/902 "2015-04-23T13:46:36Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Actually I was being sarcastic. Yeah, right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-a-hard-time-respecting-the-moderately-religious/693053.md?page=46)