# Have any mathmeticians ever become millionaires?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 14, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270 "2003-11-14T17:43:54Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/41 "2016-06-18T14:28:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Mathematical skill is of no value at all in playing the stock market. Being able to convince others that you have mathematical skill, however, is of great value. You can’t predict it any better than anyone else can, but you can gain enough influence over it to nudge it slightly in a way that favors you.
>
> EDIT: Of course the major observatories have full-time astronomers on staff. Who do you think shows the visiting researchers how to use the equipment?
The engineers …
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### Author:  [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/42 "2016-06-18T15:23:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Mathematical skill is of no value at all in playing the stock market.
Or at least, very little. This is an old thread and the OP hasn’t been around for many years, but if he were still around, I’d recommend to him John Allen Paulos’s book [A Mathematician Plays The Stock Market](https://www.amazon.com/Mathematician-Plays-Stock-Market/dp/0465054811/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=).
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/43 "2016-06-18T20:31:28Z")
Wait, you think observatories have full-time engineers on staff? Why? They’re a lot more expensive than astronomers.
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/44 "2016-06-18T22:39:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Wait, you think observatories have full-time engineers on staff? Why? They’re a lot more expensive than astronomers.
They have entire engineering _schools_ at the universities that operate the observatories. They pay the guy who built the equipment to drive up and explain to the researchers how to use it. Lathes, brakes and soldering irons …
I’m not saying there are _no_ astronomers working full time at their trade, but typically for the smaller observatories, the pay check is for teaching astronomy, like in a classroom. Are they an “astronomer”, or are they a “teacher” … I guess it’s just a question of semantics …
[“Careers in Astronomy”](https://aas.org/learn/careers-astronomy) - American Astronomical Society
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/45 "2016-06-18T23:39:52Z")
**watchwolf** , you do know that you’re talking to a guy with a degree in astronomy, right?
Yes, almost all astronomers are employed by universities. But almost all observatories are operated by universities, too. And like most scientists, even if they get paid for teaching classes (not all professors do), the bulk of their pay usually comes from government grants.
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### Author:  [@TommySeven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommySeven)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/46 "2016-06-18T23:41:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Mathematical skill is of no value at all in playing the stock market. Being able to convince others that you have mathematical skill, however, is of great value. You can’t predict it any better than anyone else can, but you can gain enough influence over it to nudge it slightly in a way that favors you.
That’s simply not true. Edward Thorp’s stat arb, for example, traded with anonymous counterparties, generally with the goal of trading small enough quantities not to move the market. This is very much “predicting”, and only in incidental (and, for the most part, undesirable) ways “nudging”. The same is true, for example, of the first traders who valued options with Black-Scholes.
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### Author:  [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/47 "2016-06-19T03:07:18Z")
Back to the OP.
Canadian mathematician [James Stewart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stewart_(mathematician)) was a millionaire (and quite a guy by the sounds of it). He made a fortune by essentially cornering the (college) math textbook market.
Among many good causes, here is [one magnificent thing](http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/1027-na-integral) he did with his money. There are loads of other articles (and pictorials) about [Integral House](https://www.google.ca/search?num=50&site=&source=hp&q=integral+house&oq=integer+ho&gs_l=hp.1.0.0i10j0l2j0i10l7.1635.5299.0.7488.11.11.0.0.0.0.187.1255.2j9.11.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.10.1139.0..35i39j0i131.LtieCuo8C3w) available on-line. Quite the place.
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### Author:  [@mr\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_wolf)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/48 "2016-06-19T11:58:12Z")
> [@NE\_Texan](#):
>
> The problem with a _true_ mathemetician becoming a millionaire is:
>
> Before you can have a million dollars, you have to get to half a million dollars,
>
> Before that, you have to make a quarter of a million dollars,
>
> Before that, you have to make 125,000…
>
> And so forth, and they can just never get there.
… and if they happen to have a million, inflation would never allow them to spend it, so why bother?
©Ζήνων
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/49 "2016-06-19T12:10:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Quoth **TommySeven** :
>
> That’s simply not true. Edward Thorp’s stat arb, for example, traded with anonymous counterparties, generally with the goal of trading small enough quantities not to move the market. This is very much “predicting”, and only in incidental (and, for the most part, undesirable) ways “nudging”. The same is true, for example, of the first traders who valued options with Black-Scholes.
How much of his success comes from his own personal use of his system, and how much comes from him selling other people access to his system? It says there that he runs a hedge fund, which means that anyone at all who wants access to his system has it. That alone is enough to guarantee that it won’t consistently beat the index, because if it did, then everyone would just buy his fund, and it would become the new index.
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/50 "2016-06-19T16:08:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> **watchwolf** , you do know that you’re talking to a guy with a degree in astronomy, right?
>
> Yes, almost all astronomers are employed by universities. But almost all observatories are operated by universities, too. And like most scientists, even if they get paid for teaching classes (not all professors do), the bulk of their pay usually comes from government grants.
No, I did not …
Are you a millionaire?
The folks I knew from Kitt Peaks were always whining about having to drive back into town to teach classes …
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### Author:  [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/51 "2016-06-19T16:31:00Z")
**Chronos** ’s worth is beyond count.
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### Author:  [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/52 "2016-06-19T17:14:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> How much of his success comes from his own personal use of his system, and how much comes from him selling other people access to his system? It says there that he runs a hedge fund, which means that anyone at all who wants access to his system has it. That alone is enough to guarantee that it won’t consistently beat the index, because if it did, then everyone would just buy his fund, and it would become the new index.
Just because he has a hedge fund doesn’t mean anyone can buy in. James Simons, mentioned above, famously has a closed fund. The only money in it is what the employees of the fund put in.
The efficient market hypothesis is mostly correct because inefficiencies get corrected. There’s no reason to assume that it’s impossible that some people have figured out ways to be better than average at correcting them. Still doesn’t the vast majority of investors though.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/53 "2016-06-19T18:39:09Z")
Oh, I’m not disputing the fact that academics aren’t paid much (at least, compared to other professions with the same amount of education and selectiveness). It’s just that all the rest of the details you’re giving are wrong.
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### Author:  [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/54 "2016-06-19T19:47:18Z")
nm
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### Author:  [@TommySeven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommySeven)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/55 "2016-06-19T20:04:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> How much of his success comes from his own personal use of his system, and how much comes from him selling other people access to his system?
Hedge funds aren’t required to make sufficient disclosures to exactly answer that, and yeah, anyone with trading ideas for more money than they personally have (or want to risk) will start a fund, and under a typical compensation structure, will make money whether their customers are successful or not.
But do you seriously question that Thorp (or the first traders to value options using Black-Scholes, or modern HFT operations–which are mostly about raw speed but sometimes a little mathematical–, or …) has achieved historical performance that is vanishingly unlikely to result from random chance? Active management is a zero-sum (before fees, with respect to passive management) game of skill. Is it surprising that someone wins?
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> It says there that he runs a hedge fund, which means that anyone at all who wants access to his system has it. That alone is enough to guarantee that it won’t consistently beat the index, because if it did, then everyone would just buy his fund, and it would become the new index.
From a [brief article on Thorp](http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/edthorp.htm):
> [@](#):
>
> He keeps his fund’s assets at about $300 million by closing it often and distributing profits regularly.
Most successful funds will show a similar pattern, of limiting external money to an amount that they think they can trade before the market impact of their trades offsets too much of the inefficiencies that they think they’ve found. The really profitable stuff (James Simons per above, almost all HFT) doesn’t run outside money.
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/56 "2016-06-19T21:41:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Oh, I’m not disputing the fact that academics aren’t paid much (at least, compared to other professions with the same amount of education and selectiveness). It’s just that all the rest of the details you’re giving are wrong.
It’s the comparison to the OP … mathematicians are generally thought of as really smart people, but are generally thought of as not making a lot of money.
Astronomers are tons and bunches smarter than mathematicians and they get paid even less; at least they used to, and I did specify “back in the day” when I started this line of reasoning.
The **Smartest Human Being on Earth** has to rely on $15 per year donations at **His** message board. Just a comparison …
My citation said 6,000 astronomer jobs in the US … is the AAS unreliable then? Because there’s 6,000 carpenters in any given large city and they certainly have career paths that lead to a million dollars.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/57 "2016-06-19T21:48:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Astronomers are tons and bunches smarter than mathematicians and they get paid even less.
I know of no meaningful way to compare the intelligence of the two professions.
> [@](#):
>
> My citation said 6,000 astronomer jobs in the US … is the AAS unreliable then?
No, why would you doubt that?
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/58 "2016-06-19T21:57:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> Oh, I’m not disputing the fact that academics aren’t paid much (at least, compared to other professions with the same amount of education and selectiveness). It’s just that all the rest of the details you’re giving are wrong.
> [@watchwolf49](#):
>
> … [snip] … My citation said 6,000 astronomer jobs in the US … is the AAS unreliable then? … [snip]
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> [snip] … No, why would you doubt that?
Because you said that detail was wrong.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/59 "2016-06-19T21:59:45Z")
OK, then, change that to “relevant details”, since the number of astronomers in the US doesn’t seem to be related to whatever point it is you’re trying to make.
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### Author:  [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-any-mathmeticians-ever-become-millionaires/213270/60 "2016-06-19T22:09:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> OK, then, change that to “relevant details”, since the number of astronomers in the US doesn’t seem to be related to whatever point it is you’re trying to make.
You seem to agree that “the fact that academics aren’t paid much (at least, compared to other professions with the same amount of education and selectiveness)” … and I’m thinking lawyers and MBA’s here.
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