# Have conservatives given up on democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861 "2006-02-10T14:40:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![19ForMe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/439d5e/32.png) [@19ForMe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/19ForMe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/21 "2006-02-10T20:54:41Z")
Does anyone actually believe the people winning elections are the ones giving up on democracy. Bush won under our rules. I’d be absolutely shocked if he really thought the system of American democracy was badly screwed up. Winners tend to like the rules. They dismiss the grumblings of the losers. In the next few years, a Democrat will win then the Republicans can take on the role of denouncing the imperial presidency and his / her disdain for democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/22 "2006-02-10T21:57:35Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > That’s not one of the basic tenents of neoconservative thought. Yes it is. [http://www.lacosapizza.com/shorris.html](http://www.lacosapizza.com/shorris.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/23 "2006-02-10T21:58:40Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > EC’s obsession with bashing not only Bush but conservatives in general has become downright creepy. 😕 Someone has to do it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/24 "2006-02-10T22:01:19Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > 1. The current craze among conservatives for the ‘unitary executive’ theory which in its extreme form (very popular among conservatives) conveys almost dictatorial powers to the presidency. To be fair, a “Bonapartist” or “presidentialist” state is not incompatible with democracy in principle (so long as the executive is, in fact, freely and fairly elected). Just ask Andrew Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/25 "2006-02-10T22:01:36Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > [It’s a tenet, straight from Leo Strauss, founder of neo-conservatism.](http://www.lewrockwell.com/decoster/decoster91.html) 1. Leo Strauss is not the “founder of neo-conservatism.” 2. Lew Rockwell is not a remotely reliable authority on Leo Strauss. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/26 "2006-02-10T22:04:50Z")
I also find this “people are unfit” comment very funny. There’s a thread on this board right now about how Bush won the 2004 election, and in it people bemoan the fact that voters were too stupid to disregard Bush’s distracting tactics about gay marriage and terrorists and see him for the fool he is. Which is it? Are the people to be trusted to vote, or not? Or are the people only to be trusted when they vote Democratic, because that’s obviously in their best interests, and not when they vote Republican, because as any idiot can see, that’s a poor choice? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/27 "2006-02-10T22:07:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There’s a thread on this board right now about how . . . Or whether > [@Bricker](#): > > . . . Bush won the 2004 election . . . ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/28 "2006-02-10T23:31:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes it is. [东北大通炕乱3伦,女人的精水喷出来高潮视频,亚洲AV永久无码一区,天堂在线资源种子](http://www.lacosapizza.com/shorris.html) Strauss’s theory of the “noble lie” isn’t how it’s portrayed in that article. It doesn’t give the executive the right to lie about whatever he wants. For Strauss, drawing from Plato’s Republic, every society/government is based on fundamental unquestionable tenets…things like, “All men are endowed by God with human rights” or “The workers control the means of production and the state serves the worker”, or “God has given us this land” or “The Pharoah is a god”. None of these statements are true…they’re all lies, and the philosopher knows they’re lies. But they’re “noble lies”, because it’s neccesary that the people of the society believe in them, or else the society would fall apart. From Plato’s “Republic”, book III > [@](#): > > How then may we devise one of those needful falsehoods of which we lately spoke–just one royal lie which may deceive the rulers, if that be possible, and at any rate the rest of the city? . . . > > They are to be told that their youth was a dream, and the education and training which they received from us, an appearance only; in reality during all that time they were being formed and fed in the womb of the earth, where they themselves and their arms and appurtenances were manufactured; when they were completed, the earth, their mother, sent them up; and so, their country being their mother and also their nurse, they are bound to advise for her good, and to defend her against attacks, and her citizens they are to regard as children of the earth and their own brothers. . . . > > Citizens, we shall say to them in our tale, you are brothers, yet God has framed you differently. Some of you have the power of command, and in the composition of these he has mingled gold, wherefore also they have the greatest honour; others he has made of silver, to be auxiliaries; others again who are to be husbandmen and craftsmen he has composed of brass and iron; and the species will generally be preserved in the children. But as all are of the same original stock, a golden parent will sometimes have a silver son, or a silver parent a golden son. And God proclaims as a first principle to the rulers, and above all else, that there is nothing which they should so anxiously guard, or of which they are to be such good guardians, as of the purity of the race. They should observe what elements mingle in their offspring; for if the son of a golden or silver parent has an admixture of brass and iron, then nature orders a transposition of > ranks, and the eye of the ruler must not be pitiful towards the child because he has to descend in the scale and become a husbandman or artisan, just as there may be sons of artisans who having an admixture of gold or silver in them are raised to honour, and become guardians or auxiliaries. For an oracle says that when a man of brass or iron guards the State, it will be destroyed. . . . > > [T}he fostering of such a belief will make them care more for the city and for one another. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/29 "2006-02-10T23:40:50Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I haven’t given up on democracy, no. But only an idiot would advocate democratic processes only, and ignore all the other necessary factors that make up a healthy body politic. Things like a stable rule of law, property rights, individual freedoms of speech, belief, and thought, and universal education. > > Iran has had numerous elections during the Islamist era, while Hong Kong had a quite subscribed democracy while it was a British colony. Which place fostered greater respect for the individual, and which was a nicer place to live? Sure, free and fair elections do not necessarily a good soceity make. But they’re a real help. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/30 "2006-02-11T02:38:31Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Sure, free and fair elections do not necessarily a good soceity make. But they’re a real help. Never said they weren’t. But without those other things I mentioned, it is just giving the people the chance to pick their particular slavemaster. Again, Iran is a great illustration of this. They have fiercely contested elections, and yet their population does not live in anything resembling a stable liberal society. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/31 "2006-02-11T02:46:52Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Again, Iran is a great illustration of this. They have fiercely contested elections, and yet their population does not live in anything resembling a stable liberal society. It’s a great illustration of how elections alone are more or less meaningless. Iran’s elections can hardly be termed free and fair when it is the religious beauracracy that decides who may run in those elections. Hell, the U.S.S.R. had elections. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/32 "2006-02-11T15:42:06Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I knew some Straussian academics and studied under one of them. I assure you they were very pro-democracy. Strauss’ influence on the Bush administration has been vastly overstated. Only Wolfowitz could really be described as a Straussian, and even that’s stretching matters. Wolfowitz took courses from Strauss and probably admires him as a thinker, but he thinks for himself. Strauss was a political philosopher, not a cult leader, despite what some people on the far left seem to think. All of his students can think for themselves. And Lew Rockwell isn’t a reliable source for anything, including the time of day and the weather outside. [Here’s a piece by Karen Kwatkiowski detailing exactly how the neocons led the US to war through the influence in the Bush Admin.](http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2004/03/10/osp/index.html) You’ll have to watch a brief commercial to read it (it’s on Salon) but it’s VERY thorough and VERY persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/33 "2006-02-11T16:06:03Z")
_Bangs head against desk_ **EC** , it’s fairly obvious the Neconservatives (who aren’t) were one of the major voices in favor of going to war. This has nothing to do with your total lack of understanding of their political philosophy. Thy happen to have some influence and are composed of pretty convincing people. They know about Strauss, no doubt, but it’s not a major part of their philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/34 "2006-02-11T16:51:30Z")
You know, the OP makes a fine description of Tony Blair’s Labour party. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/35 "2006-02-11T18:28:38Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > The possibility also occurs to me that the OP has it exactly backwards. That is, the folks who believe in “x” have left the conservative fold. Guess it all depends on who gets to define the terms of the argument. Viewed from one direction, using the terms as in the OP chooses to define them, the conclusion is foregone. From the other direction, if I were to be permitted to define the terms, the argument is entirely spurious. > > Pretty lame either way, eh? (I will be using the term “you” in a generic sense here, meaning “all conservatives and Republicans” and not referring directly to Uncle Beer.) Look, I understand that you guys want to drop the neocons like the skunks they are now that the war in Iraq is showing all signs of going belly-up in terms of positive results for the US. But back in the early days of the Bush Admin., you were all lovey-dovey with them. You were rubbing noses together and making kissy-face, yes you were. And given that you were such vociferous supporters of the Bush Admin. under the neocon agenda, you will just have to forgive us if we continue to put some (meaning a very large) measure of responsibility on you for their actions. To lump you in with them, in fact. And if you don’t like it, well you know what you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/36 "2006-02-11T18:44:19Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > First of all, Strauss isn’t the founder of neo-conservativism. Strauss was the founder of a school of philosophical textual analysis who had a student (Allan Bloom) who both wrote a book that became popular with conservative critics of modern higher education (The Closing of The American Mind), and taught somebody who would go on to become a leading voice in the neo-conservative movement (Wolfowitz), as well as having some students of his own who became prominent neoconservatives. In fact, Strauss had much more of a realist bent in his views of IR than is found in neoconservative thought > > Second, I don’t think that’s really a good summary of Strauss’s views, but I’ll let somebody more knowledgeable about Strauss than I am to discusse that. > > Third, that’s Lew Rockwell’s site. What makes you think that Rockwell or his people are the people to go to about what either Strauss or neo-Conservatives think? Ok, so Leo Strauss didn’t actually found the neocon movement in the sense of writing a charter or anything, but he’s widely acknowledged to be the source of most neocon ideas. This is just nitpicking. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/37 "2006-02-11T18:50:48Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Change _conservative_ and _Republican_ to “Federalist” and _Karl Rove_ to John Adams and this rant could apply to the midnight judicial appointments. Or change it to “Democrat” and “FDR” and it could apply to the packing of the Supreme Court. The notion is hardly new. > > The idea that only _one_ party is the “we know what’s good for you” party and trying to perpetuate its ideology and the other is innocent is, frankly, a bit silly. Change “Federalist” to “yeast”, “John Adams” to “baker” “FDR” to “baking soda” and this could be about baking bread. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/38 "2006-02-11T19:09:34Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > I knew some Straussian academics and studied under one of them. I assure you they were very pro-democracy. Strauss’ influence on the Bush administration has been vastly overstated. Only Wolfowitz could really be described as a Straussian, and even that’s stretching matters. Wolfowitz took courses from Strauss and probably admires him as a thinker, but he thinks for himself. Strauss was a political philosopher, not a cult leader, despite what some people on the far left seem to think. All of his students can think for themselves. And Lew Rockwell isn’t a reliable source for anything, including the time of day and the weather outside. 1. I don’t see how you can be all that pro-democracy when you believe in lying to the public and government by a cabal of “knowledgeable” people. Maybe these principles are democratic to you. Not to me. 2. Only Wolfowitz studied under Strauss, but that doesn’t mean he’s the only member of the White House who has been influenced by Strauss’ ideas. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Doug Feith and many others have all been cited in the press as being heavily influenced by neocon ideas. 3. If you don’t think Strauss had anything to do with neoconservatism, that’s your privilege. But your ideas are, to put it delicately, kind of isolated. 4. Adopting neocon ideas doesn’t mean you can’t or won’t think. It just means you have some bad ideas stuck in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/39 "2006-02-11T19:10:39Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Yeah, I’ve no doubt that there are people on both sides who believe the country would be best run by an oligarchy of sorts. (Said oligarchy being made up of their own kind, of course.) > > I disagree with the OP that this view can be extended to all conservatives, or all neoconservatives. See my response to Uncle Beer. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861/40 "2006-02-11T19:31:15Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > EC’s obsession with bashing not only Bush but conservatives in general has become downright creepy. Ah, the old ad hominem. When come back bring argument that’s not so … flabby. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-conservatives-given-up-on-democracy/343861.md?page=3)