# Have feminists and 'the left' finally opened their eyes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270 "2006-09-26T21:45:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/41 "2006-09-28T19:19:13Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] You mean it doesn’t creep you out to see a woman wearing a burka (an unfortunate experience that I’ve had several times in my own neighborhood)? [/QUOTE] Why should it? Kid, I’ve been around the block a few times and can remember the Italian and Polish grandmas who always wore their hair in a scarf but their great-granddaughters wear jeans that show off their butt cleavage. This country is almost as good at perverting traditional values as the Muslim (and Christian and whatever) extremists claim. Mom may wear a burka but her daughter might interpret “modest dress” to mean long dresses and hair hidden under a scarf, though I’ve seen some that cover their hair but wear tight jeans. I’m not worried. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/42 "2006-09-29T18:24:00Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] You mean it doesn’t creep you out to see a woman wearing a burka (an unfortunate experience that I’ve had several times in my own neighborhood)? [/QUOTE] Do you think it impossible that women wear this out of choice? It might be out of cultural conditioning, but everyone dresses according to cultural conditioning. If violence were threatened to someone who chose not to wear it (or who chose to wear it) that would creep me out. In my town, anyone doing this would face the law. I see plenty of people, men and women, from other nationalities out walking in their native dress. I think it’s cool. It’s a shame you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/43 "2006-09-29T18:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=slaphead] It’s a bit of a stretch to assume that every woman wearing a burka is only doing so because out of fear of a beating from her father/husband/brother or whatever. But hey, big broad brushtrokes is what cultural relations are all about, right? [/QUOTE] If she’s not wearing out of fear of a beating, then she’s wearing it because she’s been psychologically crippled by a degenerate, backward culture–one that I certainly don’t wish to see taking root over here. There are limits to tolerance. We should not tolerate that particular culture. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/44 "2006-09-29T18:35:42Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I see plenty of people, men and women, from other nationalities out walking in their native dress. I think it’s cool. It’s a shame you don’t. [/QUOTE] It’s a shame that so many people are so obsessed with appearing open-minded that they will tolerate almost any evil in the name of tolerance. Such “open-mindedness” is not a virtue. It’s cultural suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/45 "2006-09-29T18:38:14Z")
You know what, **gum** I’m in Amsterdam at this very moment, and I don’t plan to spend enough of my all-too-brief American vacation arguing with you about your warped view of Islam on this board to do this thread justice. But as a moderate-left Jewish agnostic feminist, I just want to say that I saw something here last night that pretty much encapsulates Dutch multiculturalism for me;a rather elderly woman, in full hijab and a long dress, riding a bike, with a cell phone in one hand chatting away in what to my (admittedly non-Dutch-speaking) ears to be an awful lot like Dutch. I’m meeting uplater tonight with some grade school friends who moved here after collegeand are all married to Dutch women (actually, one of them is married to an Indonesian-Dutch woman; maybe she’s a " backward" Muslim! Married to a bona fide Nice Jewish Boy!) Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m thinking of checking out what my travel guide refers to as “the only openly gay Arab bar in the world.” Muslims can’t adapt to the West, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/46 "2006-09-29T18:49:32Z")
Oh, and I almost forgot: a somewhat belated[l’shana tova](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Hashanah) (may you be inscribed in the Book of Life). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/47 "2006-09-29T23:57:45Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] It’s a shame that so many people are so obsessed with appearing open-minded that they will tolerate almost any evil in the name of tolerance. Such “open-mindedness” is not a virtue. It’s cultural suicide. [/QUOTE] Well, the other option is to believe and act as you do. Which, to me, is clearly a much greater evil. I don’t like burqas either, but I’d much rather live in a society that allowed people to dress and act however they wanted, so long as it’s within the bounds of the law, than one that forced people to dress and think alike. There’s very little difference, from where I’m sitting, between a man who wants to force women to wear burqas, and one who wishes to forbid them from wearing burqas. Neither has any respect for the woman in question, or the concept of freedom of choice or freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/48 "2006-09-30T00:08:32Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Well, the other option is to believe and act as you do. Which, to me, is clearly a much greater evil. [/QUOTE] Took the words right out of my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/49 "2006-09-30T01:22:34Z")
[QUOTE=Eva Luna] maybe she’s a " backward" Muslim! Married to a bona fide Nice Jewish Boy!) [/QUOTE] Ah now, in fairness the ‘backward’ thing may be not the girl’s fault. She could be just a result of inbreeding \<- This is an argument **gum** has used before, no more need be said about her POV IMO. I spent three months in A’dam this year. The place is full of women in full hijab getup going about their lives in freedom. Fair play. I also saw lots of Jewish people walking around wearing hats and silly long beards and Africans wearing very loud print dresses and shirts. Fair play, each to his/her own. Once the state isn’t telling people what to dress in and how to think it’s all good IMO. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/50 "2006-09-30T02:04:32Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] Ah now, in fairness the ‘backward’ thing may be not the girl’s fault. She could be just a result of inbreeding \<- This is an argument **gum** has used before, no more need be said about her POV IMO. [/QUOTE] Since this is GD I might as well back that up > [@gum](#): > > Maybe he’s one of the victims of inbreeding, that occurs in 30% of our muslim-population. > I understand that inbreeding can damage the brains. > > Rune, I’m with you. > Fuck them, let them eat shit - and if they try to hurt me, or mine, I’ll make sure they don’t have to worry about the issue of inbreeding again. > Ever. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7071788&postcount=103](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7071788&postcount=103) ---
**Author:** ![Stalky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@Stalky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stalky)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/51 "2006-09-30T02:55:58Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] If you honestly believe that Europeans should fret the coming “conquest by Islamic fundamentalists”, it may be helpful to step back and think for a minute. What conquest? When? Where? Why? No conquest of Europe is in progress, or in planning stages, or even on the distant horizon. The phrase would only make sense to a handful of mostly American right-wing blowhards who think that the Turkish immigrants looking for jobs selling candy in French shopping malls are all secretly conspiring to enforce Islamic law. (Or something.) Having spent most of the summer working at Sophia-Antipolis and living in Nice, I can testify that that corner of France, at least, remains the same delightful place that it always was, and I fully expect it to stay that way. Certain Republicans seem to honestly think that roving bands of Jihadists are marching through French cities suppressing non-Muslims and beheading their own daughters. If these people ever went to France (fat chance of that) they’d be surprised and probably disappointed to find the cities clean, safe, more open to free expression than American ones, and the few Muslims remarkably polite and well-behaved. It takes a certain level or arrogance to believe that Americans who’ve never set foot in Europe can know “what is about to happen to their continent” better than Europeans do. [/QUOTE] I find it interesting that you think I’m American. Whoever told you that was lying. I’ll be honest, I’m not sure what the end result of the imoptation of muslims will be. It could well end with a shift of the fundamental Islamic notions, leading to a co-existance of Islam with women’s rights, free speech ect. It could also end very violently, IMO. It is not a secret that the goal of Islam, just like christianity, is to take over the WORLD. Sharia (i think that’s how it’s spelled) will be imposed on countries that end up being predominantly muslim and i have to admit, i do not want my now 2 yr old daughter growing up in an Islamic theocracy. The Cartoon Uproar, the Paris Riots, they point to the fact that Islam has a fair ways still to go before it is as innocuous as Christianty (and Christianity is a bit of a world issue with the current US president.) I partially withdraw my previously stated position and carefully put forth the current modified one. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/52 "2006-09-30T03:26:48Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Well, the other option is to believe and act as you do. Which, to me, is clearly a much greater evil. I don’t like burqas either, but I’d much rather live in a society that allowed people to dress and act however they wanted, so long as it’s within the bounds of the law, than one that forced people to dress and think alike. There’s very little difference, from where I’m sitting, between a man who wants to force women to wear burqas, and one who wishes to forbid them from wearing burqas. Neither has any respect for the woman in question, or the concept of freedom of choice or freedom of expression. [/QUOTE] On the contrary, I respect the woman in question so much that I grieve for the immense injustice and suffering that has been inflicted on her through barbaric ignorance and backwardness, not only by the middle-Eastern barbarians who originally inflicted it upon her but by “enlightened” Western intellectuals who would tolerate the custom because they’re terrified of being thought racist. Just as I detest the Chinese custom of footbinding, just as I detest the African custom of female circumcision, just as I detest the medieval European custom of witch-burning, just as I detest the modern mid-Eastern custom of honor killings, just as I detest the Indian custom of widow-burning, so I detest the custom of the burka. No one who truly and honestly respects and honors women, no one who truly values liberty and human dignity, could ever regard the burka with anything other than abhorrence. No, I would not have a law which said that no woman could ever wear a burka; but at the same time, I would expect that no truly civilized human being could ever feel anything but loathing and contempt for the custom and those who defend it, and would speak out against this barbaric practice and its defenders at every opportunity. I don’t want that culture here. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/53 "2006-09-30T09:02:26Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] No, I would not have a law which said that no woman could ever wear a burka; but at the same time, I would expect that no truly civilized human being could ever feel anything but loathing and contempt for the custom and those who defend it, and would speak out against this barbaric practice and its defenders at every opportunity. [/QUOTE] So, in other words… you tolerate it. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/54 "2006-09-30T09:45:03Z")
I’ve been thinking about opening a new GD thread, but here’s a a good enough place as any to post this: let’s look at the issue on pragmatic grounds. All you Muslim-haters, _what do you propose to do about it_? Deportation? Many Muslims here are in the thrid, fourth, even fifth generation. Laws that forbid certain innocuous Islamic practices, such as purdah? Look at the mess France made of that. I put it to you that you cannot do anything about their presence within our society. And ranting about it is entirely counterproductive. The extreme position taken by the anti-Islamic ranters pushes the tolerant into a position that looks like we’re defending barbarism. Imagine what it does to actual liberal Muslims. If you constantly bang on about the inherent evil within the religion itself, rather than the extremists therein, you end up with people who would generally agree with you being backed into a corner. There is a big problem with a minority of Muslims within our societies. I am not denying it. But they’re part of our society now and they’re not going to go away. For goodness’ sake, stop alienating the people we need to be supporting. Nobody can root this evil out externally: change has to come from within. So be a bit more tolerant of stuff that isn’t illegal that you don’t personally like, and offer them support in rooting out their dangerous elements. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/55 "2006-09-30T10:15:50Z")
You know, much earlier in this thread I raised a question that may have led to an actual debate, instead of the tired, turgid slugfest it has devolved into (as threads on this subject always do). Did anyone bother to read it? If so, does anyone plan on answering it? Or is it so insipid and inane that it isn’t worth answering? If so, someone please tell me. I’d much rather be derided than ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/56 "2006-09-30T11:31:02Z")
And here’s the post in question. [QUOTE=Alessan] Here’s a debate, then: should the feminist left be more feminist or more left? In other words, if those core values come into conflict, which way should they lean? Take , for instance, the Israel/Hizballah conflict. Left wing movements generally oppose Israel, so perhaps feminists should stick to the party line. However, Israel has a much, much better record vis-a-vis women’s rights the radical Islamist movements like Hizballah. In that case, perhaps they should support Israel. Or maybe they should just stay away from the debate? It’s an interesting question, and it’s not just limited to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Do you oppose the agressors who share your values? Do you support the oppresed who don’t? What’s more important, the really big issues that everyone’s arguing about - like Iraq - or the issue that you personally care about the most - like women’s rights? Are you general interest or Special Interest? [/QUOTE] I’ve been following this thread, and agree that there is a subject for debate here. Another [recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=386755) about Anti-Semitism and the Left also got completely derailed with a discussion about the general rights and wrongs of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and failed to address what is a serious concern - in Europe at least - in moderate Left circles, about the alliance between some elements of the Left with extremist Islam, just because they are united in their hostility to Israel. If this debate takes off, either here or in a new thread, I will follow it closely and maybe even take part. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/57 "2006-09-30T15:09:44Z")
Muslims do become a bit Americanized. It has been a while since any honor killings have happened in the Dearborn area. They used to happen. These are when a daughter is killed to save her from the American she dates. The brother was the one who usually did the deed. If no brother then the father would. When they first happened there was a swell of suppport in th community.No longer tyrue. .Burkas are common. So are Arab women who dress western. It takes time. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/58 "2006-09-30T18:16:26Z")
Just so we’re on the same page, **LonesomePolecat** , when you’re talking about “burkas”, are you talking about [this sort of Afghani burqa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Woman_walking_in_Afghanistan.jpg), or something else? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/59 "2006-10-02T11:47:12Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] If she’s not wearing out of fear of a beating, then she’s wearing it because she’s been psychologically crippled by a degenerate, backward culture–one that I certainly don’t wish to see taking root over here. There are limits to tolerance. We should not tolerate that particular culture. [/QUOTE] Heavens, no, we couldn’t have that. Immediate floggings for any woman who wishes to walk around wearing more than a garter belt and a clit ring, that’s the ticket. Or are you prepared to compromise and allow them to wear a butt-floss bikini if they are a bit shy? I shouldn’t be surprised by anything on the internet anymore, but to find someone who wants to force women to wear more revealing clothing in order to protect them from oppression is more than a little bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2006, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270/60 "2006-10-02T13:19:26Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] I put it to you that you cannot do anything about their presence within our society. [/QUOTE] Maybe not - but we can stop encouraging and supporting alien beliefs. From a UK perspective: I’d begin by withdrawing state funding from all religious schools of all religions and rigourously enforce education standards in the rest. Memorising the koran or any other book has no place in any school of any status or description. All religions out of all schools. We can also stop showing one iota of tolerance to alien values. We repeal all blasphemy laws, not extend them. And we don’t give one single inch to the attempts by mobs at home and abroad to limit free speech. Anyone arrested demonstrating against free speech, if they have dual nationality, is automatically deported to that country. And I’d make it extremely difficult to immigrate. No right of entry to those who marry UK citizens. No importing leader for mosques. No automatic right of entry to families of those who legally move here. In general the point should be made over and over again that Sharia Law or any other religious variant is incompatible with secular liberal democracies and those who wish to have it should be made completely aware that their presence is not desired and that they should leave if that’s what they want. I extend all these provisions to African and American evangelicals and their attempts to import their poisonous visions of christianity. In short we have to change the climate to let it be known it is not okay to want to live by religious rules in a secular liberal democracy. And it is not okay to put loyalty to religion over or even equal to loyalty to your country. The current battle-line is free speech and we’re all too bloody quick to limit it in the name of ‘respect’ of beliefs. Short of shouting ‘fire’ etc etc the absolute right should be vigorously defended. It has to be made totally clear no-one has even the beginning glimmer of a right not to have their beliefs mocked mercilessly. And I’d change our stupid, counter-productive foreign policy and make sure social policies weren’t, as in France and its suburbs, alienating young people. And before you all start screaming how evil and unfair all this is - try being a Christian in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. My anti-religious jackboot society would remain a multi-cultural paradise compared to there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-feminists-and-the-left-finally-opened-their-eyes/374270.md?page=4)