# Have films been lost due to legal issues, like Nosferatu almost was? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [October 13, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847 "2020-10-13T03:35:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/1 "2020-10-13T03:35:04Z")
The 1922 German film “Nosferatu: A Symphony of Horror” was ruled to be an illegal adaptation of Dracula, and the court ordered all copies of the film to be destroyed. Some copies survived, so the film was saved for future generations But were there any films that genuinely had all copes destroyed (as far as we currently know) because of legal issues, and hence are considered lost? ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/2 "2020-10-13T04:12:06Z")
Lots of films/videos with nudity and sexual acts by underage actors and actresses are illegal and ordered destroyed. The most famous is the early films by Traci Lords when she was 16. For mainstream, of course Wiki has a list: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_lost\_films](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_films) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/3 "2020-10-13T14:53:46Z")
For what it’s worth, Bram Stoker’s widow, Florence, had a point. She didn’t have much of an income after Bram’s death, so an unauthorized adaptation – which paid her no royalties – was an abomination to her, and was hurting her financially. So naturally she went after them. I sympathize, but I’m glad she didn’t succeed. _Nosferatu_ , for al its faults, is a great piece of filmmaking. But in answer to your question, I don’t know of any other films lost solely to legal actions. A lot of films have been lost for other reasons, and the distribution of some films has been curtailed by legal actions (such as Disney’s suppression of the 1940 film version of _Swiss Family Robinson_ , which competed with their 1960 version. It’s still difficult to get hold of, although not impossible), but that’s not the same as “lost”. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/4 "2020-10-13T16:23:13Z")
there was a big fire in LA that wiped out music tapes not sure if films were burned too. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/5 "2020-10-13T17:05:59Z")
There have been lots of vault fires in which films were destroyed: > **[1965 MGM vault fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_MGM_vault_fire)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > On August 10, 1965, a fire erupted in Vault 7, a storage facility, at the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer studio (MGM) backlot (now Sony Pictures Studios) in Culver City, California. It was caused by an electrical short explosively igniting stored nitrate film. The initial explosion reportedly killed at least one person, and the resulting fire destroyed the entire contents of the vault, archived prints of silent and early sound films produced by MGM and its... > **[1937 Fox vault fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1937_Fox_vault_fire)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > The 1937 Fox vault fire was a major fire that broke out in a 20th Century-Fox film-storage facility in Little Ferry, New Jersey, United States, on July 9, 1937. Flammable nitrate film had previously contributed to several fires in film-industry laboratories, studios, and vaults, although the precise causes were often unknown. In Little Ferry, gases produced by decaying film, combined with high temperatures and inadequate ventilation, resulted i... They were regrettable, and such fires were probably responsible for more film destructions than legal actions were. So, I suspect, were studio decisions to toss films viewed as “worthless” (who needs to pay to store something like that?) and simple neglect until the film had deteriorated. But it’s not quite what the OP is looking for. I understand that copies of the silent version of **The Lost World** were thrown out because the studio planned to do a remake in the 1940s that never happened, and they didn’t want to store a “useless” film. They kept the 16 mm version that was used for educational programs and the like. Film historians and dinosaur film fans are glad that they didn’t toss them all. They were even more glad when people were able to glean segments from film archives around the world and two different groups were able to re-assemble a 95+% complete version of the film. They’re both available on DVD (I have both). But that wasn’t legal; it was just corporate stupidity and s\hort-sightedness. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/6 "2020-10-13T17:32:51Z")
Not quite what the OP was looking for, but close: > [@](#): > > In some cases the destruction was proactive. Following a series of trials (which ultimately acquitted him) for the alleged rape and killing of actress Virginia Rappe in 1921, silent film star Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle’s name had become so toxic that studios engaged in a program of determined destruction of films in which he had starred. > **[Lost film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_film)** > > A lost film is a feature or short film that no longer exists in any studio archive, private collection, or public archive. > During most of the 20th century, U.S. copyright law required at least one copy of every American film to be deposited at the Library of Congress at the time of copyright registration, but the Librarian of Congress was not required to retain those copies: "Under the provisions of the act of March 4, 1909, authority is granted for the return to the claimant of copyright of s... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/7 "2020-10-13T17:39:40Z")
Wow – here’s another example of a film destroyed for legal reasons. It doesn’t seem to have been any more effective than the case of Nosferatu, because the film still exists > [@](#): > > Superstar: The Karen Carpenter Story is a short film released in 1987 that chronicles the final years of singer Karen Carpenter’s life. Uniquely, the film, rather than using archive footage or actors, was realized almost entirely with Barbie dolls who are manipulated on tiny sets painstakingly modeled after their real-world counterparts. > > Although the film was intended to provide a sympathetic overview of Carpenter’s life and the struggles she faced, especially the anorexia which eventually claimed her life, it was decidedly less kind to her family. Carpenter’s parents for example were portrayed as overbearing, overprotective prudes while the doll of her brother Richard was very clearly all kinds of gay. Richard took exception to this and promptly sued director Todd Haynes for unlicensed use of The Carpenter’s music. > > Richard won his lawsuit and virtually all copies of the film were quietly destroyed while Haynes himself was banned from ever airing the personal copy he had tucked away. This didn’t stop resourceful fans; today, it can quite easily be found on YouTube because of course it can. > **[Movies That Were Recalled And Destroyed - Looper](https://www.looper.com/102661/movies-recalled-destroyed/)** > > Between legal battles and star temperaments, there are many reasons some films never see the light of day. Here are several films nearly removed from existence. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/8 "2020-10-13T19:24:50Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Disney’s suppression of the 1940 film version of _Swiss Family Robinson_ , which competed with their 1960 version. It’s still difficult to get hold of… Ummm, it’s on Disney+. Any time _Swiss Family Robinson_ comes up in a recommendation or a search, it gives you both the 1940 and 1960 versions. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/9 "2020-10-13T19:38:59Z")
But that’s only recently. Disney’s been pretty much sitting on it for decades, and not letting it out of the bag. Doesn’t help me. I don’t have Disney + and don’t plan to get it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/10 "2020-10-15T20:35:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Doesn’t help me. I don’t have Disney + and don’t plan to get it. I got Disney+ as part of package so I took a look. I don’t think you’re missing much. There’s some occasional good usage of B&W and the limited special effects are sometimes artistic, but there’s nothing else special there. Anyway, there will likely be an opportunity to get a free trial of Disney+ if you want to see it. We’ve tried out a couple of those free trials to get a look at some shows and decide we don’t want to pay for the channel. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/11 "2020-10-15T20:47:58Z")
I’ll toss in a brief mention of the film [The Unknown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unknown_(1927_film)) from 1927. It wasn’t lost due to legal issues but the last print might not have been found except for some “Who’s on first?” type of confusion. All copies had been believed lost except perhaps for some bootleg copies on 9.5mm film. Then in 1968 a 35mm print was found in France mixed in among numerous other films simply labeled _l’inconnu_ , French for “unknown”. This is a notable and significant silent film starring Lon Chaney and Joan Crawford. [From IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018528/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv): “Joan Crawford always considered The Unknown a big turning point for her. She said it wasn’t until working with Lon Chaney in this film that she learned the difference between standing in front of a camera and acting in front of a camera. She said that was all due to Chaney and his intense concentration, and after that experience she said she worked much harder to become a better actress.” ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/12 "2020-10-15T21:12:48Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > In some cases the destruction was proactive. Following a series of trials (which ultimately acquitted him) for the alleged rape and killing of actress Virginia Rappe in 1921, silent film star Roscoe “Fatty” Arbuckle’s name had become so toxic that studios engaged in a program of determined destruction of films in which he had starred. I find this dubious and the Wikipedia article cites it to a popular (non-academic) print book about “scandals” in general, so something was probably lost playing telephone from the original source to the book to the article. Sure, they probably withdrew the films from circulation because no one wanted to show them, and didn’t prioritize preserving films that had no future potential for revenue from distribution, but there would be no reason to spend money actively seeking out and destroying films when simply failing to actively preserve them was more than enough. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/13 "2020-10-15T22:13:21Z")
_Birth Control_ (1917) – Pioneering sex education activist Margaret Sanger wrote, directed, and starred in this film about her efforts to expand birth control options for women. As noted by the Margaret Sanger Papers Project, the [film was only shown once](https://sangerpapers.wordpress.com/2015/03/17/margaret-sangers-banned-film/) to about 200 people at a private screening. Then, New York license commissioner George Bell banned it, calling it “immoral, indecent, and contrary to public welfare.” After the ban was appealed, _Birth Control_ became the first film outlawed under the 1915 Mutual Film Corporation v. Industrial Commission of Ohio decision. The ruling stated First Amendment free speech protections did not apply to films, because films weren’t art, but merely a business. Although the decision was overturned in 1952, _Birth Control_ was never shown again; all copies were lost. > **[15 Movies That Were Banned in the U.S.](https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/movies-that-were-banned-in-the-u-s.html/)** > > From racist war epics to explicit educational shorts, here are 15 films that were officially banned from theaters in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/14 "2020-10-16T06:49:16Z")
It’s likely _The Day the Clown Cried_ is “lost” in the sense that it will likely never be seen by the general public: ## Viewings and footage[[edit](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Day_the_Clown_Cried&action=edit§ion=10)] On April 9, 2012, Flemish public service broadcaster [VRT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaamse_Radio-_en_Televisieomroeporganisatie) re-released—on its cultural website Cobra.be—a film piece its predecessor BRT had aired 40 years earlier to the day on the film show _Première-Magazine_ . It includes behind-the-scenes footage shot in a Paris circus and some [takes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take) with sound from the film.[[30]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-30) On February 3, 2016, German public TV [ARD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARD_(broadcaster)) aired a 2-hour documentary called _Der Clown_ .[[31]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-ARD_documentary_The_Clown-31) German film maker Eric Friedler shows interviews, a 31-minute version of original footage and re-staged scenes from the original scripts with some Swedish actors who participated in Lewis’ movie. Finally, the film shows the first full interview with Lewis about his work after 43 years. The documentary was later put on DVD and shown theatrically at the Deutsches Filminstitute. In June 2016, a 31-minute version from _Der Clown_ was uploaded to YouTube and Vimeo by editor Kay Brown, and dubbed into German with English subtitles, marking the first time a version of _The Day the Clown Cried_ was made available to the general public.[[32]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-NYDN-32)[[33]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-33) It has since been removed. Fans and critics alike hope for the film’s eventual release. The Jerry Lewis official museum website (archived) states: “The film has been tied up in litigation ever since, and all of the parties involved have never been able to reach an agreeable settlement. Jerry hopes to someday complete the film, which remains to this day a significant expression of cinematic art, suspended in the abyss of international litigation”.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-Museum-1) In June 2018, at a public auction of items from the Lewis estate, were an original annotated script, polaroids of exteriors, and an original costume. In a January 2019 interview with World Over, Lewis’ son Chris stated there is no complete negative of the film and that outstanding copyright issues prevented a release. ## Possession by the Library of Congress[[edit](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Day_the_Clown_Cried&action=edit§ion=12)] On August 5, 2015 the _[Los Angeles Times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Times)_ reported that Lewis had donated a copy of the film to the [Library of Congress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Congress),[[39]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-LATimes2015-39) under the stipulation that it not be screened before June 2024.[[40]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-NYP2015-40) The Library of Congress intends to eventually screen it at their Audio Visual Conservation campus in [Culpeper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpeper,_Virginia), [Virginia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia).[[41]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-41) Rob Stone, curator of the Library of Congress, has stated that they will not be able to loan the film to other theaters or museums without permission from Lewis’ estate. Stone has also stated that they do not have any intent to release the film in any form of home media.[[42]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-Heavy2017-42) In a December 2018 article for _[The New York Times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times)_ , Stone stated the LOC does not have a complete print of the film.[[43]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried#cite_note-43) Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Day\_the\_Clown\_Cried](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_the_Clown_Cried) ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/15 "2020-10-16T07:06:58Z")
I know a little too much about porn. If _Deep Throat_ wasn’t deemed not obscene in New York, it may have disappeared completely. On the non-porn side, there’s _Cannibal Holocaust_ where if the actors who “died” onscreen hadn’t appeared on Italian TV and the director testified in court how the special effects where done, the suspected “snuff” film would have been withdrawn from public viewing. If Disney decided to release _Song of the South_ , there would surely be lawsuits to keep it from ever being released again. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/16 "2020-10-16T14:32:03Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > If Disney decided to release _Song of the South_ , there would surely be lawsuits to keep it from ever being released again. I don’t think law would have anything to do with Song of the South. Culturally it might be shunned, but I don’t think any law forbids its existence or release. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/17 "2020-10-16T14:36:38Z")
^^Right. Who would sue and for what? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-films-been-lost-due-to-legal-issues-like-nosferatu-almost-was/922847/18 "2020-10-16T14:44:22Z")
> [@Didi44](#): > > If Disney decided to release _Song of the South_ , there would surely be lawsuits to keep it from ever being released again. What kind of lawsuits? The ‘slaves were all happy and liked to sing’ thing is not at all the kind of image Disney wants to present to the world, but there’s nothing illegal about the movie and the rights to it are uncontested. The last official release of it was in 2000 on VHS in the UK, and there weren’t any legal issues with it that I am aware of or could find.