# Have Great Britain's restrictive gun laws contributed to the rise in violent crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709 "2005-08-12T11:24:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![fybo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9de053/32.png) [@fybo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fybo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/1 "2005-08-12T11:24:01Z")
Have Great Britain’s restrictive gun laws contributed to the rise in violent crime? [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html) Handguns were banned after and atrocious incident at a school in Scotland. Akin to Columbine, this was even more chilling. The Dunblane massacre occurred at the primary school in the small town of Dunblane in central Scotland. On Wednesday, 13 March 1996, unemployed former shopkeeper Thomas Hamilton, walked in to the school armed with two pistols, two revolvers and 743 cartridges and opened fire. He fired 105 rounds with one of his two 9 mm Browning semi-automatic pistols within about 3-4 minutes. **Sixteen children of 4-6 years** of age and one adult teacher died as a result. Hamilton then committed suicide. As a result of the tragedy, a public inquiry was held, led by Lord Cullen. After gaining entry to the school, Hamilton made his way to the gym hall and opened fire on a class, killing or wounding every person present bar one pupil. Fifteen children and a teacher (Mrs Gwen Mayor) died at the scene. Hamilton then fired one shot with one of his two .357 Smith & Wesson revolvers pointing upwards into his mouth, killing himself instantly. A further fifteen children and three adults were rushed to hospital as soon as the emergency services arrived, however one of these children was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. The public outcry was phenomenal and the UK Government had NO CHOICE but to ban handguns. A truly justified act. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/2 "2005-08-13T00:54:07Z")
According to “Freakonomics : A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything by Steven D. Levitt, Stephen J. Dubner”- Gun Control- one way or the other- has no measurable effect on crime- one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/3 "2005-08-13T14:27:39Z")
You might like to check out [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=284964) which was the original response to Cecil’s column. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/4 "2005-08-13T20:34:18Z")
the argument that rises in UK crime and fresh restrictions are cause and effect is predicated on the assumption that British criminals were previously afraid that they might encounter someone with a pistol, and are now happy in the knowledge that they won’t. This ignores the fact that so few people here had a pistol (and even fewer were in a position to carry them legally) that criminals never reckoned it as a serious danger in the first place. And yes, I did have several guns. Never bothered carrying them, save on my way to the club. Even then, never bothered loading them. I didn’t reckon the danger was sufficiently great to be worth worrying about. I might occasionally put a speed loader in my pocket, if I could be bothered. ---
**Author:** ![Fortean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fortean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fortean)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2005, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/5 "2005-08-15T11:43:15Z")
It seems strange that, half a year on, Cecil still hasn’t seen fit to reply to many of the refutations made in that previous thread. Just to make it easier for him, his (completely non-cited) comments are in bold, followed by a (cited) refutation from the previous thread: \*\*Violent crime jumped by two-thirds between 1998 and 2003. \*\* > [@](#): > > I’d be interested to note the source for the statement " Violent crime jumped by two-thirds between 1998 and 2003". According to British Crime Survey figures, violent crime in the UK has fallen by 35% since its peak in 1995, and has remained relatively stable since 2000. ([http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page63.asp](http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page63.asp)) \*\*Crime is higher in the UK than the U.S. in every category except rape and murder. \*\* > [@](#): > > You have to wonder what drugs Cecil was on when he wrote this sentence. Speaking of drugs, the Department of Justice ([http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/drug.htm](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/drug.htm)) reported 1,500,000 drugs related arrests in 2003 in America. The comparable figure ([http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page16.asp](http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page16.asp)) in the UK was 140,000. > > Given a population of 300,000,000 to 50,000,000, the rate per capita for drugs offences is roughly double in the US compared to the UK. \*\*UK householders who injure a home invader are often hauled up on charges (although they may be acquitted), whereas in the U.S. more commonly you’ll get a pass. \*\* > [@](#): > > ‘Where does this leave those who wish to defend their property against burglars or a physical attack? > The general principle is that the law allows such force to be used in self defence as is reasonable, in the circumstances as the accused believed them to be. > It does not matter whether that belief, viewed objectively, or with hindsight, was “reasonable”. > Significantly, even if the force used leads to a death it can still be “reasonable”.’ > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1628710.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1628710.stm) \*\*Rising crime in Britain surely has a lot to do with the lousy economy. \*\* > [@](#): > > Where is this lousy economy and poor employment rate coming from? We have one of the strongest economies in Europe (nay, the world) and an incredibly low unemployment rate which is going down month on month. ([http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12](http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12)) Well? ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/6 "2005-08-18T22:07:15Z")
Cecil? ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/7 "2005-08-19T03:16:06Z")
Some interesting statistics from NationMaster: [Murders per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap) Rankings: US 24th, UK 46th [Murders with firearms per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir_cap) Rankings: USA 8th, UK 32nd [Prisoners per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri_per_cap) Rankings: USA 1st, UK not in the top 100 So even though the USA has a huge gaol population, it has much greater rate of murder than the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Fortean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fortean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fortean)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/8 "2005-08-19T12:02:14Z")
I’ve just realised that last url in my post is wrong, I must’ve added a rogue bracket when cuttin n pastin. The correct one is: [http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12](http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-great-britains-restrictive-gun-laws-contributed-to-the-rise-in-violent-crime/316709/9 "2005-08-19T12:13:48Z")
It is evident from the silence that Cecil has been caught voicing opinions on something he knew little about. Truly, he is the first among Dopers and an inspiration to us all.