# Have I been "Left Behind"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 27, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331 "2005-12-27T06:35:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/121 "2006-01-02T07:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > **Aeschines** : What I’ve seen in GD and in the Pit is someone getting the typical pile-on from the Atheist Contingent, who used any cheap shot to invalidate what he is saying. I think that you are assuming that everyone who disagrees with **mswas** is an atheist and that atheists are big bad meanies. Some of us who challenge **mswas** are Christians who are weary of Christian bullies. You call Constitutional law a “cheap shot”? > [@](#): > > The important question in any debate is, “In what way can what s/he is saying be true?” That is, help your fellow debator create the best argument s/he can, then interact with that. There is not just one important question in any given debate. There are many. Your statement is confusing. \ > [@](#): > > The heart of atheism/skepticism is a hard-core literalness and inflexibility of thought. Mswas is not debating in that fashion, so it’s asymmetrical warfare. Those who would beat him over the head end up panty-twisting and whining that he’s not debating _right._ > > Does this mean that everything he is saying is correct, gets a free pass? By no means. But people are engaging him in such a clumsy fashion (butter knife) that my advice to those pissing and moaning about his debating technique can only be, “Get some skills.” I taught debate early in my career and was a judge at the Nationals in the late 1980’s. The rules were the same for Christians and atheists. It is admirable to defend a friend, but defend him for reasons based in the reality that is apparent to all who read here. Are the following expressing the latest in Christian terminology: _panty-twisting, whining, pissing and moaning_? Are these the soft answers that turn away anger? Where is your argument now? ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/122 "2006-01-02T08:11:08Z")
I have to categorically re-count you logic on that last one: > [@Aeschines](#): > > The heart of atheism/skepticism is a hard-core literalness and inflexibility of thought. **Mswas** is not debating in that fashion, so it’s asymmetrical warfare. Those who would beat him over the head end up panty-twisting and whining that he’s not debating _right._ Timmy!, Timmy!, $#$GF#R#GR#R Timmy! > [@Aeschines](#): > > Does this mean that everything he is saying is correct, gets a free pass? By no means. But people are engaging him in such a clumsy fashion (butter knife) that my advice to those pissing and moaning about his debating technique can only be, “Get some skills.” Timarchus? Gobbols?!?!? > [@Aeschines](#): > > And so he enlightens limited thinkers.Perhaps you too have taken a step forward, owing to his words.Tortillas made from stone-ground maize always contain a bit of lime. Yeaaaah, Timmeeeeaaasdlvm;lrstlgljsd;kltm 24;lgm! ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/123 "2006-01-02T08:36:17Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Congratulations on your 25,551st post. And furthermore… There’s no need to try to cover MSWAS’s @ss… He did something hilarious, we called him on it. I don’t think he’s a bad person – I may not even completely disagree with some things he says. I have done some weird stuff in my life, only a small portion of which will I ever post on the Straight Dope. As for the OP, MSWAS was clearly delusional to some degree… Whether it’s that he was off his meds that week or that he thinks we really care how many times he has redifined the original Greek concept of ‘Christ’ or applied his very own personal Jesus, with Depeche Mode playing in the background - doesn’t matter. If he doesn’t want to be taken seriously by people who really think about things, he is already in hog heaven – and we should just laugh when he says something and always ignore it. If he actually does care and wants to actually be taken seriously, he will come around to presenting rational thoughts, otherwise the ideas in his head will stay there, and eventually die with him. I would not necessarily consider that a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/124 "2006-01-02T08:46:37Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > The heart of atheism/skepticism is a hard-core literalness and inflexibility of thought. **Mswas** is not debating in that fashion, so it’s asymmetrical warfare. Those who would beat him over the head end up panty-twisting and whining that he’s not debating _right._ huuuhhh, since when has Gooftroop ag been an Atheist?! or even a hard core skeptic? Where have I been?! > [@](#): > > …a clumsy fashion (butter knife) that PASS THE BUUTTER KNOIFE! 🙂 [Related Monty Python Quote [http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/ContractualObligations/TheChurchBells](http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/ContractualObligations/TheChurchBells)] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/125 "2006-01-02T11:50:27Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > but when debb puts it in the dinner, ya kindof have no choice. Nice try. I’m the cook in the house, Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![gooftroopag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gooftroopag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gooftroopag)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/126 "2006-01-02T12:34:43Z")
**Citizen Bob** , your Timmy reference was priceless and neatly summed up **Aeschines** comments. > [@Aeschines](#): > > The heart of atheism/skepticism is a hard-core literalness and inflexibility of thought. **Mswas** is not debating in that fashion, so it’s asymmetrical warfare. Those who would beat him over the head end up panty-twisting and whining that he’s not debating _right._ > > Does this mean that everything he is saying is correct, gets a free pass? By no means. But people are engaging him in such a clumsy fashion (butter knife) that my advice to those pissing and moaning about his debating technique can only be, “Get some skills.” > > And so he enlightens limited thinkers. Perhaps you too have taken a step forward, owing to his words. Certainly not. Typical response from a fundamentalist that is incapable of understanding that it doesn’t take an atheist to disagree with you. I believe **mswas** is using a dishonest debating style which includes: 1. Not defining the variables in the discussion. [Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348651&page=2) 2. Lacing his arguments with “a mix humor, fantasy…” **Aeschines** , I understand your head has been confined to recesses of \*\*mswas’s \*\* ass for sometime now, but after your separation surgery you might want to focus on what’s being discussed here rather than quibbling. I don’t care if **mswas** wants to define Christ as the sun. I really don’t _fucking_ care how he defines it, so long as he defines it\*. The problem is that rather than say “Christ=sun” mswas says something similar to “Christ is like the sun, but not really”. - I’d prefer that he use a different term so as not to confuse people, but if mswas is interested in limiting his language choices to primarily Judeo-Christian terminology/concepts then that is his choice; a choice that will, undoubtably confuse those inexperienced in his rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/127 "2006-01-02T17:55:53Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I think that you are assuming that everyone who disagrees with **mswas** is an atheist and that atheists are big bad meanies. Some of us who challenge **mswas** are Christians who are weary of Christian bullies. **Mswas** is a bully? I saw guy elaborating his theories, not a bully. > [@](#): > > You call Constitutional law a “cheap shot”? I don’t know what you’re talking about here. > [@](#): > > There is not just one important question in any given debate. There are many. Your statement is confusing. I’m saying that, if you really wish to have a debate that seeks the truth, then you don’t straw-man your opponent; rather, you should even be willing to help him/her restate or elaborate upon his/her arguments so as to present his/her side in the strongest way possible. > [@](#): > > I taught debate early in my career and was a judge at the Nationals in the late 1980’s. The rules were the same for Christians and atheists. They should be, of course. > [@](#): > > It is admirable to defend a friend, but defend him for reasons based in the reality that is apparent to all who read here. Well, it’s quite clear that no one here was getting that reality in the first place, yet many felt competent to pounce. > [@](#): > > Are the following expressing the latest in Christian terminology: _panty-twisting, whining, pissing and moaning_? Are these the soft answers that turn away anger? Where is your argument now? I’m not a Christian; I’m a pantheist. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/128 "2006-01-02T17:57:32Z")
> [@Citizen Bob](#): > > Timmy!, Timmy!, $#$GF#R#GR#R Timmy! Could you let me in on the joke? I’ve been totally tuned out of US TV and most other pop culture for a long time. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/129 "2006-01-02T18:03:08Z")
> [@Citizen Bob](#): > > And furthermore… There’s no need to try to cover MSWAS’s @ss… He did something hilarious, we called him on it. What? What was even his transgression? > [@](#): > > I don’t think he’s a bad person – I may not even completely disagree with some things he says. Cool, ‘cause the guy’s fuckin’ brilliant. > [@](#): > > As for the OP, MSWAS was clearly delusional to some degree… Maybe he was/wasn’t, but the hamfisted “analysis” that people attempted in GD and the Pit certainly got us no closer to understanding his thought process. > [@](#): > > If he doesn’t want to be taken seriously by people who really think about things, he is already in hog heaven – and we should just laugh when he says something and always ignore it. I take that you mean by the above that, I can’t be taken seriously by thinkers here because there _are_ no thinkers here. I disagree. I’m a thinker, I’m here, and I take him seriously. > [@](#): > > If he actually does care and wants to actually be taken seriously, he will come around to presenting rational thoughts, otherwise the ideas in his head will stay there, and eventually die with him. I would not necessarily consider that a good thing. We are not in the same place. I find his thoughts both rational and edifying. It’s a pity that you are not in a position to learn from them also. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/130 "2006-01-02T18:08:42Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > **Mswas** is a bully? I saw guy elaborating his theories, not a bully. The bully reference was to the religious leaders of Pontotoc County, championed by **mswas** , who excommunicated Ms. Herdahl from multiple churches and tacitly approved the persecution of her family. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/131 "2006-01-02T18:21:33Z")
> [@gooftroopag](#): > > Typical response from a fundamentalist that is incapable of understanding that it doesn’t take an atheist to disagree with you. 😕Everyone here knows that I’m the furthest thing from a fundie. I’m a pantheist New Ager. Your comment is doubly stupid in that a real fundie would find **mswas’s** thoughts no more appealing than would an atheist. > [@](#): > > 1. Not defining the variables in the discussion. [Cite](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=348651&page=2) No, that’s a whole page of a thread. What post are you complaining about? This whole argument about **mswas’s** debating style is further complicated in that he didn’t write the OP, and I didn’t perceive him to be in particular the _star_ of the thread, either. He was one person commenting among many. > [@](#): > > 1. Lacing his arguments with “a mix humor, fantasy…” In order first to decide whether humor or fantasy is appropriate in a debate, I think you first need a debate. Just because it’s called “Great Debates” doesn’t mean that everything in there is a real debate. What **mswas** was doing is what I’d call “sharing.” Sure, when people attacked his position in a demeaning fashion, he blasted back (and effectively, too), but I wouldn’t call the exchanges “debating.” > [@](#): > > **Aeschines** , I understand your head has been confined to recesses of \*\*mswas’s \*\* ass for sometime now, Hey, at least I’m social in my ass-spelunking, whereas you just have yours up yours in an autoerotic fashion. > [@](#): > > but after your separation surgery you might want to focus on what’s being discussed here rather than quibbling. No need for surgery: We used plenty of lube. As for the “discussion,” for my part it’s like trying to convince disbelieving kindergarteners that there’s a Cyrillic alphabet when they don’t even know their ABC’s yet. You simply don’t have the mental tools to do the work. > [@](#): > > I don’t care if **mswas** wants to define Christ as the sun. I really don’t _fucking_ care how he defines it, so long as he defines it\*. The problem is that rather than say “Christ=sun” mswas says something similar to “Christ is like the sun, but not really”. Right. And you want to measure the position and momentum of a subatomic particle simultaneously. Tough shit. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/132 "2006-01-02T18:24:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The bully reference was to the religious leaders of Pontotoc County, championed by **mswas** , who excommunicated Ms. Herdahl from multiple churches and tacitly approved the persecution of her family. Where is that thread/post(s). Can’t find. If I disagree with **mswas** on the matter, I’ll critique what he said right here and show how it’s properly done. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/133 "2006-01-02T19:01:41Z")
It is a reference to the opinions of **mswas** (and the objections raised to those opinions), that began in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6949479#post6949479) of the [How can we save ourselves from the coming onslaught of Christian concentration camps?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=351710) thread to which several posters in this thread are contributing. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/134 "2006-01-02T19:10:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **kidchameleon** So are you saying Cecil Adams is a real person? You got a cite for that? [Sure](http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=xj1q5JpCL1&isbn=0345333152&itm=1), I can [whip](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php?userid=31) up a [few](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_011.html). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/135 "2006-01-02T19:34:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > \*The hand gesture Spock makes is the symbol of the Cohen, the high priest of the Jews. The high priest (position currently vacant) is the _kohen gadol_. Kohanim are priests. Nimoy, who’s Jewish himself, and was raised Orthodox, got the hand signal from the kohanim blessing of the congregation. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/136 "2006-01-02T19:41:09Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Does this mean that everything he is saying is correct, gets a free pass? By no means. But people are engaging him in such a clumsy fashion (butter knife) that my advice to those pissing and moaning about his debating technique can only be, “Get some skills.” C’mon, every time I bring [facts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337685&page=2&highlight=erek+drugs) into the [arguement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343277&page=1&pp=50&highlight=erek+pheromones) he pushes them aside with unsubstantiated claims. It’s like debating with Aldeberon. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/137 "2006-01-02T21:00:08Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > C’mon, every time I bring [facts](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=337685&page=2&highlight=erek+drugs) into the [arguement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=343277&page=1&pp=50&highlight=erek+pheromones) he pushes them aside with unsubstantiated claims. It’s like debating with Aldeberon. Hard to follow, friend, unless you spotlight specific posts. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Citizen\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Citizen_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/138 "2006-01-02T21:10:18Z")
What you are describing about MSWAS is called “[Sophistry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist)” by my definition - [Look it up in wikipedia]. You seem to be also leaning toward the Sophist just like MSWAS and your namesake: [http://www.bartleby.com/65/ae/Aeschine.html](http://www.bartleby.com/65/ae/Aeschine.html) . Then there never has been any honest conversation and there can never be. Does the Timarchus cite click, now? > [@Aeschines](#): > > Your comment is doubly stupid in that a Your comments on this particular threat have always been vapid… so what’s your point? I don’t remember seeing vapid remarks before. > [@Aeschines](#): > > What post are you complaining about? _shakes head_ The thickness continues to purvail. > [@Aeschines](#): > > my ass-spelunking, whereas you just have yours… up yours … No need for surgery. Hmm, sounds like familiarity with pop-culture and possibly SouthPark… I’m surprized you don’t understand the “Timmy!, Timmey! dfhsgfghwgrfhefTTTtimmmmeeee!!!” Reference, Timarchus. Well Here’s anothe one, TIMMEEEYYY! > [@](#): > > As for the “discussion,” I haven’t seen you discuss anything - Just make wild claims about other peoples’ intentions, on which you are clarly noty an expert-- and neither am I really – unless you ARE secretly MSWAS and you don’t want us to know… and endless defense of MSWAS Sophistry. > [@](#): > > You simply don’t have the mental tools to do the work.Right. To quote Tom Servo: “Deal with it, pink boy!” [[http://www.msties.com/episodes/107.htm](http://www.msties.com/episodes/107.htm) ] and “If you can’t take the heat, get out of the movie” []. > [@](#): > > And you want to measure the position and momentum of a subatomic particle simultaneously. Tough shit. Don’t go there - I will clean you up on physics any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/139 "2006-01-02T21:22:54Z")
Hey, **CitizenBob** , what’s the argument at this point? Your word slush ain’t making sense. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331/140 "2006-01-02T21:24:45Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Hard to follow, friend, unless you spotlight specific posts. To make life easy for you: Posts 55-61 on the first thread, 21, 25, 57, 59, 74, 76, 78, 83-86, 96, 97, 99, 101, 104 and 107-109 in the second. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-been-left-behind/337331.md?page=8)