# Have I mentioned lately how much I hate "manufactured demand?" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 28, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125 "2010-03-28T18:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/161 "2010-03-31T00:42:23Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > It did not reflect a social attitude. Sarahfeena didn’t say “As long as I get my paycheck, the rest of you can kiss my ass.” She was using her paycheck to demonstrate that people other than the rich receive money when a good is sold. She has explained this, yet you continue to attribute a mythical attitude to her. > > What you are doing is dishonest & unethical. It makes you a crappy person. Maybe not all the time, but certainly here. Oh, sure. All posts are completely independent, and should never be read in the context of the larger thread or conversation. You want to buy your useless crap, throw it away, and never think about it again. Who’s the crappy person again? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/162 "2010-03-31T00:43:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Oh, sure. All posts are completely independent, and should never be read in the context of the larger thread or conversation. You want to buy your useless crap, throw it away, and never think about it again. Who’s the crappy person again? More attitudes that I do not hold. Why do you keep attributing things to us that we never said, nor ever implied? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/163 "2010-03-31T00:46:40Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > More attitudes that I do not hold. Why do you keep attributing things to us that we never said, nor ever implied? More content-free posting! Awesome! Let’s keep going! ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/164 "2010-03-31T00:51:14Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > More content-free posting! Awesome! Let’s keep going! You may think that someone lying about you is irrelevant, or “content free”, but I do not. You are intentionally making it difficult for a bystander to understand my position. In fact, you are lying about my position. It is impossible to have a discussion under those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/165 "2010-03-31T02:23:33Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You may think that someone lying about you is irrelevant, or “content free”, but I do not. You are intentionally making it difficult for a bystander to understand my position. In fact, you are lying about my position. It is impossible to have a discussion under those circumstances. You haven’t espoused a position, at least, not on the issue of the thread, other than that everybody else seems to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/166 "2010-03-31T02:47:52Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > No, I think I nailed it rather accurately, and it perfectly illustrates the social attitude I was talking about in post 76. Gosh, I almost feel as if we’ve been over this before… Seriously, you have no clue at all. I was responding ONLY to the idea that when people buy products, the only benefit is to rich corporate fat cats. That’s it. There are millions of examples of people are far from rich, but who make a reasonable living by working for companies that manufacture and sell consumer goods. That is a FACT. It has nothing to do with social attitudes, or the Tragedy of the Commons, or what will happen 50 years down the road. Whether or not we should all be concerned about the future of the world and of humanity, of course we should. No one is denying that, but it has nothing to do at all with the point I was making. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/167 "2010-03-31T03:58:41Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > More content-free posting! Awesome! Let’s keep going! Pointing out that you’re lying over and over is not “content free,” it’s pointing out dishonesty. You’re invention positions and attributing them to people who don’t hold them. Frankly, you look like a shithead. Sarahfeena’s point was extremely clear, obvious to everyone, and nothing at all like the position you falsely attributed to her. Unless you’re retarded, you know full well what she was really saying and know that your mischaracterization of it is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/168 "2010-03-31T05:31:38Z")
I don’t think anyone in this thread has been lying, but I do think people are talking past each other (and I think some people in this thread have been going out of their way to wilfully misunderstand other people). A couple of points - I don’t think money goes _just_ to the rich - I think Trickle Down Economics fails because of the Rich Person Bottleneck - money tends to go out of the general system and into their bank accounts, to be used for a few elite purchases instead of being used to make things better for the masses of people generating that money for them. There is much controversy about Trickle Down Economics, though, and probably should be in a different thread. Another point is that I think where you stand on Anthropogenic Global Warming and overpopulation of the earth by humans probably affects your take on consumerism, advertising, and marketing. If we were living in a open system and there were no consequences for using as many resources as you want, I’d say fill your boots - buy whatever you want and throw it wherever you want when you’re done with it. I don’t believe that we live in that world, though - I think the day is coming when people really are going to have to tell other people what they can and cannot buy, or we’re all going to be up shit creek (and whether or not they can have kids, too). I think that day is coming sooner because we’re using up resources on crap, and we’re buying all that crap because advertising tells us to. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/169 "2010-03-31T06:46:18Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Seriously, you have no clue at all. I was responding ONLY to the idea that when people buy products, the only benefit is to rich corporate fat cats. That’s it. There are millions of examples of people are far from rich, but who make a reasonable living by working for companies that manufacture and sell consumer goods. That is a FACT. It has nothing to do with social attitudes, or the Tragedy of the Commons, or what will happen 50 years down the road. Whether or not we should all be concerned about the future of the world and of humanity, of course we should. No one is denying that, but it has nothing to do at all with the point I was making. Oh Jesus Christ. My whole point, which you have ONCE AGAIN confirmed, is that the problem with the consumerist economy is that it does not look far enough into the future. For all of the millions of people making a “reasonable living” from consumerism, there are many millions more who are blatantly victimized by it, making far less than slave wages on useless tchotchkes so ruthlessly marketed to gullible chumps. It’s NOT sustainable, and attitudes that are focused on “well, I get a paycheck out of it, so cool”, are simply not good enough. They’re extremely short-sighted and irresponsible, and the fact that you guys are arguing tht none of this has anything to do with what I’ve been discussing is, well, tragic. As for this: > [@](#): > > I was responding ONLY to the idea that when people buy products, the only benefit is to rich corporate fat cats. That’s it. This was never said. By anyone. CW’s post reads: > [@](#): > > I don’t buy the idea that The Economy needs everyone to buy trivial shit all the time, either. Where do the profits that get syphoned out of the system and into rich people’s pockets fit into that economic model? At no point did anyone say that the ONLY benefit is to rich corporate fat cats. The fact remains, of course, that the lion’s share definitely goes to the rich, but your post: > [@](#): > > Rich people spend and invest money, and all of that money movement creates jobs. When you buy stuff, no matter how trivial, it creates jobs. When rich people buy stuff, it creates jobs. EVERYTHING that money is spent on means more jobs, more money being earned, more wealth creation for everyone. …is the very _essence_ of Trickle-Down Economics, and not as applied to tax cuts. I mean the old-school horse-and-sparrow concept. It’s pure “Hurrah free market! I’m doing great!”, when most of the other several billion people on the planet are sucking wind economically and ecologically because you have to buy a goddamned zebra-print Snuggie for everyone in your family for Christmas (example obviously made up out of whole cloth. Whole cloth. Get it?) As to the charges of lying and dishonesty: **RickJay** and **Labs** can kiss my fucking ass. I never lied about anything. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/170 "2010-03-31T11:43:13Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Oh Jesus Christ. My whole point, which you have ONCE AGAIN confirmed, is that the problem with the consumerist economy is that it does not look far enough into the future. For all of the millions of people making a “reasonable living” from consumerism, there are many millions more who are blatantly victimized by it, making far less than slave wages on useless tchotchkes so ruthlessly marketed to gullible chumps. I guess if you’re a 19-year-old whitebread university student who wants to be outraged over the latest Naomi Klein horseshit, this might actually _sound_ true. > [@](#): > > It’s pure “Hurrah free market! I’m doing great!”, when most of the other several billion people on the planet are sucking wind economically and ecologically because you have to buy a goddamned zebra-print Snuggie for everyone in your family for Christmas (example obviously made up out of whole cloth. Whole cloth. Get it?) If you really think the reason people in poor countries are poor is because middle class people in North America have money to buy a few silly items, you are, in the truest sense of the term, an ignoramus. Maybe you aren’t a liar. Maybe you’re just more stupid than I had thought. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/171 "2010-03-31T11:45:35Z")
Repeatedly attributing positions to people who do not hold, and have repeatedly denied, those positions is lying. You are a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/172 "2010-03-31T15:46:15Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Oh Jesus Christ. My whole point, which you have ONCE AGAIN confirmed, is that the problem with the consumerist economy is that it does not look far enough into the future. For all of the millions of people making a “reasonable living” from consumerism, there are many millions more who are blatantly victimized by it, making far less than slave wages on useless tchotchkes so ruthlessly marketed to gullible chumps. It’s NOT sustainable, and attitudes that are focused on “well, I get a paycheck out of it, so cool”, are simply not good enough. They’re extremely short-sighted and irresponsible, and the fact that you guys are arguing tht none of this has anything to do with what I’ve been discussing is, well, tragic. I seriously think you are crazy. I have done no such thing as what you are saying here, and whatever it is you think the topic of this thread is, you are wrong. > [@](#): > > As for this:This was never said. By anyone. CW’s post reads:At no point did anyone say that the ONLY benefit is to rich corporate fat cats. The fact remains, of course, that the lion’s share definitely goes to the rich, but your post:…is the very _essence_ of Trickle-Down Economics, and not as applied to tax cuts. I mean the old-school horse-and-sparrow concept. It’s pure “Hurrah free market! I’m doing great!”, when most of the other several billion people on the planet are sucking wind economically and ecologically because you have to buy a goddamned zebra-print Snuggie for everyone in your family for Christmas (example obviously made up out of whole cloth. Whole cloth. Get it?) You are going after me for a response to a totally different issue (that you brought up, by the way), and then laying into me because I didn’t address the issue you think it ought to be. **Cat Whisperer** brought up the issue of lining the pockets of the rich, and I pointed out that the rich are not the only ones who benefit. You mocked the idea of “trickle down,” and I countered that by stating that I and many many many many other people are proof that it does, in fact, trickle down. Well, I would probably use the term “spread around” but in any case that was the ONLY point I was addressing. Whether or not the economic system that we are operating under is ethical, or whether I personally am ethical for taking advantage of it in order to support myself and my family is a _totally different issue_ than the one you took exception to in the first place. And it’s not what this thread is about. > [@](#): > > As to the charges of lying and dishonesty: **RickJay** and **Labs** can kiss my fucking ass. I never lied about anything. You are certainly misrepresenting our opinions. I think that can safely be called a lie when it is done deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/173 "2010-03-31T17:30:10Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Repeatedly attributing positions to people who do not hold, and have repeatedly denied, those positions is lying. You are a liar. Suck my dick. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/174 "2010-03-31T17:46:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I guess if you’re a 19-year-old whitebread university student who wants to be outraged over the latest Naomi Klein horseshit, this might actually _sound_ true. I’m a 38-year-old father and world traveler. I don’t have a naive bone in my body, and I have never read Naomi Klein. > [@](#): > > If you really think the reason people in poor countries are poor is because middle class people in North America have money to buy a few silly items, you are, in the truest sense of the term, an ignoramus. > > Maybe you aren’t a liar. Maybe you’re just more stupid than I had thought. You’ve oversimplified it to the point of hyperbole, but you know it’s an inarguable fact that we are rich because we built, and continue to build, our wealth on the backs of the Third World. You’re a complete idiot if you can’t see it. Please, do keep slinging around “ignoramus”, “liar”, and whatever other liquid shit you’re wallowing in. It amuses me. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/175 "2010-03-31T17:48:14Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Repeatedly attributing positions to people who do not hold, and have repeatedly denied, those positions is lying. You are a liar. You don’t hold any positions. You made a couple of vague, non-responsive statements somewhere near the beginning of the thread, and have spent the rest of it sullenly protesting that EVERYONE is misinterpreting you. You’re a Pitizen, alright. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/176 "2010-03-31T17:51:17Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I seriously think you are crazy. I have done no such thing as what you are saying here, and whatever it is you think the topic of this thread is, you are wrong. And I am beginning to suspect that you have argumentative blinders on, or that you can not grasp the concept of “implications”. > [@](#): > > You are going after me for a response to a totally different issue (that you brought up, by the way), and then laying into me because I didn’t address the issue you think it ought to be. **Cat Whisperer** brought up the issue of lining the pockets of the rich, and I pointed out that the rich are not the only ones who benefit. You mocked the idea of “trickle down,” and I countered that by stating that I and many many many many other people are proof that it does, in fact, trickle down. Well, I would probably use the term “spread around” but in any case that was the ONLY point I was addressing. Whether or not the economic system that we are operating under is ethical, or whether I personally am ethical for taking advantage of it in order to support myself and my family is a _totally different issue_ than the one you took exception to in the first place. And it’s not what this thread is about. It most certainly is. If you can’t see it by this point, that’s no longer my fault. > [@](#): > > You are certainly misrepresenting our opinions. I think that can safely be called a lie when it is done deliberately. Well, golly. I guess that’s it, then. Despite the fact that I have not lied, I suppose I’m a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/177 "2010-03-31T18:37:52Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > You don’t hold any positions. You made a couple of vague, non-responsive statements somewhere near the beginning of the thread, and have spent the rest of it sullenly protesting that EVERYONE is misinterpreting you. You’re a Pitizen, alright. Make up your mind. On the one hand, I hold no positions. On the other, you aren’t a liar for attributing positions to me that I claim I do not hold. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/178 "2010-03-31T18:53:18Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Make up your mind. On the one hand, I hold no positions. On the other, you aren’t a liar for attributing positions to me that I claim I do not hold. > > Which is it? There is no conflict here. The only position you hold is that everybody else seems to be misinterpreting you. It’s gone on all thread. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/179 "2010-03-31T18:54:00Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > There is no conflict here. The only position you hold is that everybody else seems to be misinterpreting you. It’s gone on all thread. Okay, so you admit you’re a liar. That’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125/180 "2010-03-31T19:43:17Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Okay, so you admit you’re a liar. > > That’s a start. I wonder if you ever intend on posting a topical response. _Shrug_ Doesn’t matter to me that much. I’ll be here as long as you want to be here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-i-mentioned-lately-how-much-i-hate-manufactured-demand/534125.md?page=10)