# Have no stong male presence in a broken home= Bad thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 9, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276 "2003-11-09T19:21:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/21 "2003-11-10T01:53:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*It _has_ been helpful to have good, brave, honest women in my life. > > It would be useful if someone would please provide me the list of things that my father was supposed to be my role model for, and likewise for my mother. If they provided them in a different list, was this bad? Would it have been bad if instead of a father, my mother had raised me with a woman with the same attributes? > > I guess I don’t understand the linkage between virtue and gender. \*\* I don’t think it’s necessarily a “virtue” issue just a practical one. People do the best they can within the limitations of their background, knowledge and experience. Yes, it’s probably true that a well socialized heterosexual male will probably have an easier job overall modeling for a heterosexual son than a homosexual one, but this doesn’t mean a heterosexual man can’t be a good, tolerant and “virtuous” father for gay son. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/22 "2003-11-10T02:16:22Z")
I always find these discussions vastly amusing, because all the things everyone says children need a father for I got from my mother, and vice versa, except with regards to certain functions of biology before I was weaned. It’s good for kids to have a strong presence to set rules and a nurturing presence to care for them. It matters very little what genders are represented in these positions. I’m not an expert in this, YMMV, IANAP, etc. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/23 "2003-11-10T02:22:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve had to stop my son from putitng on nail polish etc. because I am the only person he’s ever hung around with. Why stop him? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/24 "2003-11-10T02:41:43Z")
I don’t want kids to make fun of him. I went thru that and do not want his feelings hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_On\_My\_Sleeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/77aa72/32.png) [@Heart\_On\_My\_Sleeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_On_My_Sleeve)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/25 "2003-11-10T02:44:06Z")
I and 4 siblings grew up more or less without fathers. While I consider myself to be a successful person in most respects, I deal with a lot of issues that I don’t think I would have had to otherwise. But what I have determined is that it has affected all of my siblings & I in different ways, and some more than others. I think the most pain is caused by rejection from a parent, whatever the sex of the parent. Even if a child chooses not to have contact with the parent, it’s usually because the parent was unable to be a parent, and is perceived as a rejection by the child. But I don’t think a blanket answer applies to everyone. It may have affected you, and if you have the means, I’ve found counseling to be a wonderful, nurturing way to work through it. And if it affects you more than it affects others, that’s okay, you may just feel it more deeply. I’ve always felt bad, frustrated and like a crybaby because of how deeply I felt it, but my sister said something like, “I think it affected you more because you’re ‘deep’.” I took that as a wonderful permission to just be okay with feeling how I feel. I think the amount of the effect depends on the “remaining” parent. It’s important that the child knows it is not his/her fault, and make sure that the child knows that you’re looking out for them. Lastly, I found this book helpful– [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1558745491/102-1894379-4110561?v=glance](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1558745491/102-1894379-4110561?v=glance) Good luck and take care of yourself!! ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/26 "2003-11-10T02:44:39Z")
My father left before I was old enoughto remember him. I was raised by my mother and grandmother. I’d say I’ve made it through the last quarter century pretty well-adjusted. I’m certainly not effeminate in the least. My wife usually gripes about my being such “a man.” You know how women use the word “man” like it’s a bad thing, sometimes. I guess I could see how it _could_ happen, but it’s by no means unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/27 "2003-11-10T03:33:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*I don’t want kids to make fun of him. > I went thru that and do not want his feelings hurt. \*\* That’s understandable. Is that how you present it to him? Do you let him do it in the house? ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/28 "2003-11-10T07:10:24Z")
Depends. There’s a strong male presence, and then there’s a strong male presence that actually wants to be a parent. My mom divorced when I was 4 and remarried three years later. I don’t hardly have any memories of my dad as a father figure (or strong male presence), so the new guy was all I really knew. He had a no-fuse temper, highly intolerant of anyone that couldn’t do or know things like he did, was abusive (some physical, mostly mental), and generally showed no desire to be a parent (my only other comparison as a parent was my mom). He was also an incredibly hard worker, held down 3 jobs most of the time, and always took us on a 2 week vacation every year (so I got to see 85% of the US, for which I am grateful). But he never played with me, never did father-son stuff, never offered to check my homework and never took care of me if I was home sick. By the time I was 10 I realized that I didn’t want him as a role model and avoided him as much as I could (but I always appreciated that I had new clothes to wear and food on the table). Thankfully he nearly always worked 2nd or 3rd shift so we hardly saw each other up until I joined the military. Apparently, even though I saw my real dad on average once per year for about 10 days, my mom says I still grew up a lot like him; mannerisms, posture, demeanor, etc. I was a very shy kid in junior high and high school, but I finally pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and got myself out of my shell, pretty much thanks to no one but me. To get back around to the OP, “Having no strong male presence in a broken home= Bad thing?” Between a “father” that I only knew for 4 years and had infrequent contact after that and another male that for all intents and purposes did not want a son in the first place, I’d have to say no. I think my mom would have done fine without either of them. Thanks mom. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/29 "2003-11-10T08:06:05Z")
My child does not have the option of having a father. He has a Grandfather who he does not live with, but who is a real “bloke”. Who can say if my child was harmed by not having a father. The same way no one can tell if a child is harmed by not having a mother, or eating too much sugar, excessive tennis-ball-against-the-wall-throwing, too much bad TV, seeing a parent naked, reading lots, over dosing on fruit…whatever. In other words it is fairly tricky to prove. A child is part nature, part nurture. We work with what we have. If there is no father then we go on reguardless. A child is not destined to be bad because they lack a father. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/30 "2003-11-10T08:49:27Z")
Children raised in father-absent homes will much more likely experience poverty than children in two-parent families. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/31 "2003-11-10T11:36:05Z")
> [@](#): > > It would be useful if someone would please provide me the list of things that my father was supposed to be my role model for, and likewise for my mother. If they provided them in a different list, was this bad? Would it have been bad if instead of a father, my mother had raised me with a woman with the same attributes? Can’t provide a list. I don’t think there really is a list, certainly not of attributes, but I also don’t think the “strong male presence” needs to be _in_ the home.I’ll give an example. My sister has been divorced since my nephew was very young. My nephew’s father rarely visited or called and generally does not take much of an interest in his life. My nephew has three uncles , all of whom are way more involved with their own kids , and even with my nephew. I suspect my nephew has a different idea of appropriate male behavior than he would have had if his uncles has also disappeared from their children’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![aerodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f08c70/32.png) [@aerodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aerodave)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/32 "2003-11-10T12:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Children raised in father-absent homes will much more likely experience poverty than children in two-parent families. \*\* (Okay, I’ll bite…) Cite?! ---
**Author:** ![Jennyrosity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@Jennyrosity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennyrosity)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/33 "2003-11-10T12:42:17Z")
I grew up without a father and suffered no ill effects. I have a wonderful, very close relationship with my mum, and don’t feel I missed out anything. Having said that, I also had my grandad and my uncle to fulfill any need I may have had for a strong male rolemodel. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/34 "2003-11-10T13:18:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*This is something I keep hearing over and over, and I still don’t understand it. Why is it important to have both a male and a female role model? As I understand it, the purpose of a role model for a child is so that he or she grows up to be a good person. Are males and females good persons in different ways? \*\* Well, the answer’s either **yes** or **no** ; and if it’s no, maybe they need to _see_ males and females being good persons in the _same_ ways to _know_ the answer’s no. Actually, the purpose of a role model is to, well, model a role. Do males and females have different roles in our society? (to what extent? and should they? This may be a question for GD.) ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/35 "2003-11-10T14:57:43Z")
My nephews are definitely better off without their father than with. _He_ asked for the divorce and _he_ wanted to control how the stuff got divided, and when he didn’t get his way, he refused to pay child support. My sister worked three jobs for ten years, and he spent all his money on the kids of whatever bimbo he was boffing at the time—but not on his kids. When they were still married, one of my nephews wanted to get a doll to take to be with him to hug because he was afraid of the dark, and my BIL wouldn’t allow it, because he didn’t want his kid to be a ‘faggot.’ Post-divorce, my sister got the kid the doll—a raggedy-andy type pillow—and his fear of the dark disappeared. They’re both nice normal well-adjusted young men, very fond of my sister’s husband, but they hate their dad, and it’s nobody’s fault but their own. I wonder if anybody’s done studies about what happens to kids who don’t have a mother? It just seems that it’s all about fatherless kids. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/36 "2003-11-10T15:02:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*That’s understandable. Is that how you present it to him? Do you let him do it in the house? \*\* Yes. Some times he’s wanted to wear weird stuff and I say, fine, jsut understand there are some mean kids who like to make fun. Pay it no mind, they are stupid, just expect it sometimes. He may turn out to be punk! ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/37 "2003-11-10T15:04:11Z")
Here’s a cite for audilover, supporting Walloon. This appears to be a class syllabus, which includes cited studies and actual numbers for poverty rates. [http://gatton.uky.edu/faculty/hoytg/450/trans10.8.doc](http://gatton.uky.edu/faculty/hoytg/450/trans10.8.doc) ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/38 "2003-11-10T15:08:42Z")
## quote: ## Originally posted by Walloon Children raised in father-absent homes will much more likely experience poverty than children in two-parent families. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by audilover \* > \*\*(Okay, I’ll bite…) Cite?! \*\* This is hardly a brain teaser. I’m surprised you’re even asking for a cite for this common sense economic fact. But here goes \> [Financial Stats of Single Parents](http://www.allprodad.com/4financialstatsforsingleparents.asp) There is a large economic lifestyle distinction between “married and divorced” and “never married” single mothers, however, as illustrated here \> [Children with single mothers- How they fare](http://www.census.gov/prod/3/97pubs/cb-9701.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/39 "2003-11-10T15:10:53Z")
It’s not that men and women are good in different ways, **matt** , more that, as **Thudlow** pointed out, kids need to see men and women being good in the _same_ ways. If all the important men in my life growing up had been upstanding good guys and all the women had been heartless scumbags, I would have a really skewed idea of what women are like. ---
**Author:** ![ouisey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc29f/32.png) [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276/40 "2003-11-10T16:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*Children raised in father-absent homes will much more likely experience poverty than children in two-parent families. \*\* This is such a bs statement. Children raised in father-absent homes in poverty will much more likely experience poverty. Children raised in father-absent homes with a parent who does a good job of bringing home the bacon have a good chance of not experiencing poverty. Its not the freakin’ end of the world when a parent leaves. My mother left me when I was four, and it was a damn good thing she did. My son’s father left when he was two, and again, its a good thing that he did. Bad things happen to families all the time, and you have to work through it. Some families have alcoholic fathers, other families have work-centric parents who have no time for their kids. These are all crappy situations, but they never get demonized the way the single-parent family does. Yeah, it sucks, but shit happens and you’ve got to do the best you can. All is not lost. My son and I have a great family…I refuse to call it “broken”, because its not. It just doesn’t fit into someone’s ideal. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-no-stong-male-presence-in-a-broken-home-bad-thing/212276.md?page=3)