# Have scandal monger lies begun to pay off? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 18, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262 "2013-06-18T11:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/61 "2013-06-20T11:02:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think the NSA thing is a scandal either, at least not on the government’s part(Democratic voters suddenly supporting this thing is a scandal of another sort). > > However, the President did lie when he said that everyone in Congress was briefed, either that or he just didn’t know what he was talking about. This President lies a lot, actually, and it was a wonder that voters thought he was trustworthy for this long. You just admitted that you don’t know he’s a liar, yet you are calling him a liar. That’s one of the things we mean by mudslinging. I don’t know if Obama is handling this well or not, because, honestly, once I figured out what was actually happening in each case, I didn’t see any controversy to be keeping track of. I personally can’t understand how a reasonable person thinks there is any scandal going on. But people need to stop acting like this doesn’t matter. Obama is not just someone who is ineligible for election. He is the effective head of the Democratic party. Any bad stuff about him gets carried over to the 2016 Democratic candidate. Just like McCain got all of Bush’s problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/62 "2013-06-20T11:36:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Just like McCain got all of Bush’s problems. To be fair, McCain was capable (seemingly eager) to create problems of his own. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/63 "2013-06-20T12:02:44Z")
CNN’s numbers not changing just tells me that Obama’s fans don’t care about his intimidation of journalists, his use of the federal government as a patronage machine, or other ridiculous overreaches of autocratic power. I already knew this, though. It still says a lot more about his supporters than about “scandal monger lies” or whether the underlying actions are right. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/64 "2013-06-20T12:06:21Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > CNN’s numbers not changing just tells me that Obama’s fans don’t care about his intimidation of journalists, his use of the federal government as a patronage machine, or other ridiculous overreaches of autocratic power. I already knew this, though. It still says a lot more about his supporters than about “scandal monger lies” or whether the underlying actions are right. Never mind what’s right or the lies people are telling, people - what’s important are the things **CR** _believes_ are happening! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/65 "2013-06-20T12:06:36Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > CNN’s numbers not changing just tells me that Obama’s fans don’t care about his intimidation of journalists, his use of the federal government as a patronage machine, or other ridiculous overreaches of autocratic power. I already knew this, though. It still says a lot more about his supporters than about “scandal monger lies” or whether the underlying actions are right. This says more about _you_ than about anyone you’ve said about saying about. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/66 "2013-06-20T12:09:09Z")
You should see what people are talking about outside of Obama Internet Defense Squad convention threads, it’s really something. How much longer is “no Democrat is capable of doing anything wrong and the rest of the world is just liars” tenable? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/67 "2013-06-20T12:12:35Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > You should see what people are talking about outside of Obama Internet Defense Squad convention threads, it’s really something. How much longer is “no Democrat is capable of doing anything wrong and the rest of the world is just liars” tenable? See? Things you believe are happening that have no basis in reality. There’s a difference between “people are lying about Obama” and “no Democrat is capable of doing anything wrong”. Come back when you grasp the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/68 "2013-06-20T12:28:31Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > You should see what people are talking about outside of Obama Internet Defense Squad convention threads, it’s really something. How much longer is “no Democrat is capable of doing anything wrong and the rest of the world is just liars” tenable? On the morning news, we heard that Governor Rick will let us know if he’s running for reelection on July 1st; rumor has it he’ll try for the presidency again, instead. More material for _The Daily Show_! Will he run against the loathsome Ted Cruz, who has offended even his fellow Republicans? This Texan will gladly criticize Democrats–many have earned it. But, like most urban Texans, I’ll _never_ vote for a Republican. Oh, those Obama “scandals” are overblown. Why are they so worried? He can’t get another term. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/69 "2013-06-20T12:41:14Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Oh, those Obama “scandals” are overblown. Why are they so worried? He can’t get another term. They’re worried he’ll accomplish something, which is why pretty much all they’ve been doing is obstructing every bill, every appointment, every budget they can. The more successful he is, the bigger his coattails in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/70 "2013-06-20T14:00:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Gigobuster, that’s not really true > > [RealClearPolitics - President Obama Job Approval](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html) > > The average of polls shows a definite drop in approval. As Nate Silver reported, the decline is small enough that statistical variation could also be a factor. And in the cite you gave the couple of pols against Obama are so out of the pack that I have to be skeptical here like the Washington Post reported. I do take into consideration the odd push polling behavior of CNN of recently, but as even Silver put it, it is more likely that criticism of the democrats is a part of that slight drop. Mind you, I would had been disappointed if no change would had come regarding the NSA issue, but as Pew research put it, it did not register a lot. It remains an issue that both parties are involved and as pointed by others: congress approval, that is traditionally lower, is even worse now. [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-13/congress-rating-as-institution-hits-low-gallup-says.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-13/congress-rating-as-institution-hits-low-gallup-says.html) ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/71 "2013-06-20T16:11:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > You just admitted that you don’t know he’s a liar, yet you are calling him a liar. That’s one of the things we mean by mudslinging. > > I don’t know if Obama is handling this well or not, because, honestly, once I figured out what was actually happening in each case, I didn’t see any controversy to be keeping track of. I personally can’t understand how a reasonable person thinks there is any scandal going on. > > But people need to stop acting like this doesn’t matter. Obama is not just someone who is ineligible for election. He is the effective head of the Democratic party. Any bad stuff about him gets carried over to the 2016 Democratic candidate. Just like McCain got all of Bush’s problems. Excellent points. And I may add, if Obama must devote so much of his time to responding to the dozen active trumped up scandals there is less time paid to his real job of being President of the greatest nation on earth. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/72 "2013-06-20T16:21:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > How do you, as an individual thinker, know when an, incident, mistake, crime, controversy has achieved sufficient public mass for you personally to decide in your own mind that something such as the Republican mistake in Cincinnati should be labeled a scandal instead of must likely what it was, a mistake? When officials start apologizing for things and when it gets sufficient traction with the public to become headline news is usually the metric I use. > [@](#): > > This is not about the definition of a scandal per se, it is about when an individual like you or I recognize a certain public mass also deciding as individuals that it is a scandal now. But it IS about the definition of a scandal, since you are using your own to define what is or isn’t one. > [@](#): > > Perhaps my threshold for calling this incident a scandal based on Obama’s wrong doing has not been satisfied with any basis in evidence so I decline to use the term as you and others hsvevwith less concern for proof as I require. Again, you seem fixated on the assumption that Obama has to be involved or in the wrong for something to be a scandal. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, a scandal doesn’t have to involve Obama to become a scandal…it doesn’t have to involve the Administration at all in fact to become a scandal. It doesn’t even have to be true…there have been and will be in the future public scandals that were completely false or incorrect. None of this has anything to do with whether something is a scandal in the public’s collective mind. > [@](#): > > Do you not believe the NSA controversy should be called an Obama scandal or should it be called that any time soon. People are calling it a scandal, but is it not enough public mass on that one for you? No, I don’t believe this should be called ‘an Obama scandal’, since he’s simply continuing policies started under a previous president. That’s not going to make some left wingers or liberal Democrats (right winger types are already mad at him for being black and getting elected, so were unlikely to poll in his favor before) automatically happy about it, however, since they made a lot of assumptions about what Obama was or wasn’t going to do both when he was initially elected and re-elected. Many are disillusioned by things he’s done or not done that don’t meet their expectations, and the NSA thing is just one more on the list for some people. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/73 "2013-06-20T16:28:32Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Excellent points. And I may add, if Obama must devote so much of his time to responding to the dozen active trumped up scandals there is less time paid to his real job of being President of the greatest nation on earth. If Obama responded to them in an upfront and transparent way, the public would move on, assuming transparency doesn’t implicate him. What he’s been doing with these scandals has been basically taking the 5th. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/74 "2013-06-20T16:39:35Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Cite that the NSA issue is the cause? What have you got besides your own unsupported conjecture? > [@](#): > > A new CNN poll shows President Obama’s approval ratings taking a nose dive in recent weeks, a development that is probably not unrelated to the deluge of second-term scandals that have taken over the media. The poll, conducted in the middle of last week, shows the president’s disapproval rating at 54 percent, his worst marks in about a year and a half, since November of 2011. Even more notable, the rating has swung nine points since the last time the poll was taken in mid-May, which predates all of the NSA leaks that have been provided by Edward Snowden. > > Normally, that would be understandable given all the negative news of the last week, but the president has to be concerned that the biggest drop came among people under 30 years old. His support among that key group dropped an astonishing 17 points in the last month. > > [http://m.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/obamas-approval-ratings-june/66291/](http://m.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/obamas-approval-ratings-june/66291/) So I have cited what you asked. What now? On the Bush Library Thread I asked for a cite to support the defense of Adaher’s position that Saddam Hussen did not meet a deadline to disarm, so Bush was justified to invade Iraq. I’ve asked all for backup on that unsupported claim and all have left the thread. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/75 "2013-06-20T16:48:14Z")
Dude, I’m trying to be patient here, but your cite basically shows that it’s a combination of things, not just the NSA scandal. Did you READ it?? Did you read the first line you quoted?? [QUOTE=] A new CNN poll shows President Obama’s approval ratings taking a nose dive in recent weeks, _ **a development that is probably not unrelated to the deluge of second-term scandals that have taken over the media** _. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Even more notable, the rating has swung nine points since the last time the poll was taken in mid-May, _ **which predates all of the NSA leaks that have been provided by Edward Snowden** _. My emphasis. It’s not unrelated to the deluge of second-term scandals that have taken over the media. So, you haven’t got anything except your unsupported conjecture that it’s solely or even mainly due to the NSA issue, which is what you claimed and what I asked you to back up. > [@](#): > > On the Bush Library Thread I asked for a cite to support the defense of Adaher’s position that Saddam Hussen did not meet a deadline to disarm, so Bush was justified to invade Iraq. Why would I back up an assertion that Bush was justified to invade Iraq when I don’t think he WAS justified?? And why would I deal with that here in any case, since this thread isn’t about Bush, the Iraq war or that other thread?? > [@](#): > > I’ve asked all for backup on that unsupported claim and all have left the thread. Perhaps you should consider that people didn’t respond to you because they were tired of your horseshit, your pedantry, your constant shifting of goal posts and your ridiculous semantic digressions. Just a thought. But [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16398459#post16398459), I started a thread just for you. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/76 "2013-06-20T16:56:26Z")
So, one last attempt, **NotfooledbyW** : Why should Obama become more popular in his second term, in defiance of historical trends? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/77 "2013-06-21T16:19:35Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/78 "2013-06-22T01:04:37Z")
I agree with \*\*everything \*\*Gyrate wrote on this thread. It is a beautiful work of art. > [@Gyrate](#): > > So you admit that it’s unfounded.Once again blaming everyone but the lying Congressional Republicans, I see. > Or a reasonable person could notice that Rep Issa has been dragging his feet about releasing the IRS transcripts, and when [Cummings made good on his threat to release the key transcript from Cincinnati](http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/06/18/bucking-issa-cummings-releases-irs-transcript/) it showed that “the group manager centralized cases for consistency, the Cincinnati agent developed inappropriate screening criteria, the manager didn’t learn of the criteria until a year later, and perhaps most importantly, no witnesses have identified any White House involvement.” > Why aren’t you pointing the finger at Issa, especially after the Benghazi fiasco which ALSO involved the GOP lying in order to make Obama look bad? All you’re doing is proving **NotFooledbyW** ’s unsubtly-made point, which is that the GOP’s mudflinging is starting to stick regardless of the truth of the matter. > [@Gyrate](#): > > A couple of years ago a British satirical program called _Brass Eye_ got a bunch of celebrities to say ridiculous things on camera while believing that they were producing PSAs on various causes. One of the most well-known of these was radio DJ Neil Fox explaining, in all earnestness, that “pedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me”, with the pay-off line **“Now that is scientific fact — there’s no real evidence for it — but it is scientific fact”.** > > Your comments above remind me of this in the sheer ridiculousness of it all. You admit that we have no evidence for it, but seem to think that not responding to the lies in the manner you think he should have is somehow a worse sin than telling the lies in the first place. Does that sound like the thought process of a “reasonable person” to you? > You keep saying that but - wait for it - you’ve got no evidence for it. > That’s an interesting interpretation of events. > > And yet you only seem bothered by the behavior of the Obama administration and not the more openly egregious behavior of Congress. I’ve having a hard time accepting this whole “I’m just holding our public servants accountable” schtick when you’re blatantly ignoring or handwaving away everything anyone with an “(R)” after their name does. Every twitch of Obama is amplified into a guilty tremor; every falsehood from (to belabor a point) Issa is simply glossed over. Reasonable people would wonder if you’re really arguing in good faith. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Admittedly we don’t yet know if it was anyone associated with Congress who altered the Benghazi emails, but if “stonewalling” is “doing something” then why is refusing to release the transcripts which would go a long way towards clearing up who ordered what in the IRS case not “doing something”?Reasonable people might not categorize it as “stonewalling” in the first place. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Or Congress not knowing about the IRS targetting, until the press found out that they did? > [@Gyrate](#): > > What I find particularly amusing is that, having been forced to abandon the position that “there is an actual scandal”, we have now moved on to “maybe there’s no scandal but if the public think there’s a scandal even though there’s no scandal, there’s a scandal, and it’s still Obama’s fault for not stopping the public for jumping to the wrong conclusions”. > [@Gyrate](#): > > Never mind what’s right or the lies people are telling, people - what’s important are the things **CR** _believes_ are happening! > [@Gyrate](#): > > See? Things you believe are happening that have no basis in reality. There’s a difference between “people are lying about Obama” and “no Democrat is capable of doing anything wrong”. Come back when you grasp the difference. > [@Gyrate](#): > > They’re worried he’ll accomplish something, which is why pretty much all they’ve been doing is obstructing every bill, every appointment, every budget they can. The more successful he is, the bigger his coattails in 2016. I am about to respond to XT. I wish I could agree like this, but I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/79 "2013-06-22T01:16:23Z")
It’s all excuse making. The fundamental issue is that the President’s popularity is going down because he’s no longer perceived as honest and trustworthy. Does that mean he’s guilty of something? No. But we’re not trying the President criminally. There are a lot of things that have been coming out about this administration and the President’s responses have been “I don’t know nuthin’. It’s someone else’s fault.” That will tend to cause voters to question his trustworthiness, and his competence to boot. Thus the declining approval ratings. It doesn’t help that this is a pattern of behavior for him. People who are naturally inclined not to like him, like me, saw it early, but eventually people who aren’t disposed to disliking him notice too. Back in 2008, he had several campaign controversies, and every single time he blamed his staff. He’s a professional buck passer and the public is now starting to pick up on it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/80 "2013-06-22T01:29:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s all excuse making. The fundamental issue is that the President’s popularity is going down because he’s no longer perceived as honest and trustworthy. > > Does that mean he’s guilty of something? No. But we’re not trying the President criminally. There are a lot of things that have been coming out about this administration and the President’s responses have been “I don’t know nuthin’. It’s someone else’s fault.” That will tend to cause voters to question his trustworthiness, and his competence to boot. Thus the declining approval ratings. > > It doesn’t help that this is a pattern of behavior for him. People who are naturally inclined not to like him, like me, saw it early, but eventually people who aren’t disposed to disliking him notice too. Back in 2008, he had several campaign controversies, and every single time he blamed his staff. He’s a professional buck passer and the public is now starting to pick up on it. You do realize that you should say exactly that for congress no? As it is the case the pols show them going to less popular levels than getting ring worm. > **[Americans' Confidence in Congress Falls to Lowest on Record](https://news.gallup.com/poll/163052/americans-confidence-congress-falls-lowest-record.aspx)** > > Americans' confidence in Congress as an institution is down to 10%, ranking it last on a list of 16 societal institutions for the fourth straight year. The military maintains its top spot, with 76% expressing confidence in it. And no, as I pointed before the current issue has bipartisan support to continue, and we should continue to criticize all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262.md?page=5)