# Have scandal monger lies begun to pay off? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 18, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262 "2013-06-18T11:20:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/81 "2013-06-22T02:21:43Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Dude, I’m trying to be patient here, but your cite basically shows that it’s a combination of things, not just the NSA scandal. Did you READ it?? Did you read the first line you quoted?? > > My emphasis. It’s not unrelated to the deluge of second-term scandals that have taken over the media. So, you haven’t got anything except your unsupported conjecture that it’s solely or even mainly due to the NSA issue, which is what you claimed and what I asked you to back up. > > Why would I back up an assertion that Bush was justified to invade Iraq when I don’t think he WAS justified?? And why would I deal with that here in any case, since this thread isn’t about Bush, the Iraq war or that other thread?? > > Perhaps you should consider that people didn’t respond to you because they were tired of your horseshit, your pedantry, your constant shifting of goal posts and your ridiculous semantic digressions. Just a thought. But [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16398459#post16398459), I started a thread just for you. YOu like that word Pedantry? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/82 "2013-06-22T03:30:09Z")
> [@](#): > > My WAG is that the real change has been in independents and democrats, who see the NSA thing in particular as a betrayal. They thought that with Bush gone, there would be real, substantial changes to all of that kind of thing, but Obama has kept a lot of the things Bush et al did in place and ticking away, and that’s not making a lot of more left leaning folks very happy atm…and it’s reflected in the polls. That’s my WAG anyway. I don’t think it’s ‘scandal mongers lies’ beginning to ‘pay off’, it’s the lefties becoming increasingly disillusioned by a president who is, after all, a moderate for all that the right wing has attempted to portray him as a communist/socialist. - XT 06-18-2013 09:15 AM So here’s the question. Would it be pedantic to point out that my statement includes “so far it sounds as if” and I did not write that any of the replies ‘say’ anything, but there goes XT telling me that he didn’t “see” any replies that “say” … something? > [@](#): > > From replies so far it sounds as if the NSA controversy is a primary factor causing Obama’s falling trust and honesty numbers to drop suddenly. - Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW > I haven’t seen any replies so far that say that the NSA controversy is the ‘primary factor causing Obama’s falling trust’. What responses do you see as saying that? - XT 06-18-2013 03:04 PM I am beginning to see how to avoid being called pedantic. It is becoming so clear. XT didn’t really want me to reply. He wanted me to ignore his question. Of course. I didn’t “SEE” any responses as saying anything either. So I’m not supposed to answer the question. Then I won’t be so pedantic. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/83 "2013-11-09T00:13:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/17/cnn-poll-obama-approval-falls-amid-controversies/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/06/17/cnn-poll-obama-approval-falls-amid-controversies/) Going by the title, I would have to ask when scandal monger lies NOT paid off? ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/84 "2013-11-09T21:58:06Z")
I don’t think the NSA revelations were made up lies by Republicans so I think there is some legitimacy to people feeling the president isn’t too trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/85 "2013-11-10T20:46:42Z")
What revelations were those? Today, we know that the NSA spies on Americans. By contrast, years ago… we knew that the NSA spies on Americans. It’s kind of their job description. Nothing new has come to light on that front. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/86 "2013-11-11T03:30:21Z")
Under Bush, the problem was that there was lack of Congressional and judicial oversight. Under Obama, we find that the problem is still lack of Congressional or judicial oversight. Plus he lied about it. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/87 "2013-11-11T04:36:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Under Bush, the problem was that there was lack of Congressional and judicial oversight. Under Obama, we find that the problem is still lack of Congressional or judicial oversight. Plus he lied about it. Lied about what? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/88 "2013-11-11T04:43:25Z")
About it being transparent: > **[PolitiFact - Barack Obama says the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2013/jun/21/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-foreign-intelligence-surveillanc/)** > > President Barack Obama has taken a lot of criticism from both friend and foe in the wake of recent disclosures about how ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/89 "2013-11-11T15:38:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Maybe in this thread, as something different, we could argue about the meanings of ‘scandal monger’ and ‘lies’, as well as ‘pay off’. Wouldn’t want this subject to get stale or anything. > > I skimmed through the article but it doesn’t get very specific about the breakdown as far as I could tell. My WAG is that the real change has been in independents and democrats, who see the NSA thing in particular as a betrayal. They thought that with Bush gone, there would be real, substantial changes to all of that kind of thing, but Obama has kept a lot of the things Bush et al did in place and ticking away, and that’s not making a lot of more left leaning folks very happy atm…and it’s reflected in the polls. That’s my WAG anyway. I don’t think it’s ‘scandal mongers lies’ beginning to ‘pay off’, it’s the lefties becoming increasingly disillusioned by a president who is, after all, a moderate for all that the right wing has attempted to portray him as a communist/socialist. Good point. I’m a progressive, and the Dems lost my vote some time ago mostly because the Democrats have pretty much become the same as Republicans on most economic issues. There remains a clear divide on social issues, but I see that as kabuki theater designed to keep people distracted from the looting of the middle class and the poor by the one percent with the help of both major parties. The elections in 2014 might go disastrously for the Dems if enough progressives and independents feel the same way I do. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch! I honestly did not think that would happen, as I consider myself a bit of a political outlier, but maybe the NSA scandal is waking people up. (The IRS “scandal” is a manufactured bit of right wing blather not a real scandal at all. I doubt if many progressives are falling for it, but maybe some of the brain dead faction of independents are falling for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/90 "2013-11-11T16:13:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Notfooled, I know you’re not fooled by administration stonewalling. There’s no evidence because the administration won’t come clean. They are hiding things because they have things to hide. > > The public didn’t turn on Obama at first. Dopers were crowing about how his approval ratings were unaffected. The public was giving the administration the benefit of the doubt. But now weeks later, we’re finding out that there isn’t really any effort to get to the bottom of anything. The administration just won’t reliably investigate itself. Which tells the public that there is something they are hiding. > > THe IG audit never led to an investigation. The audit itself never uncovered who ordered the profiling. The lame response from the Inspector General? “They wouldn’t tell me.” Oh, well investigation closed then, they refused to rat anyone out! Shulman actually was told who ordered the profiling, but he didn’t recall who it was. > > The administration needs to come clean on this and other issues. The longer the public waits for answers, the more his approval will drop. Benghazi and the IRS are made up phony Faux News “scandals” that no one but wing nutters believe in. You are doing the equivalent of arguing that the tooth fairy is real here. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/91 "2013-11-11T16:20:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What revelations were those? Today, we know that the NSA spies on Americans. By contrast, years ago… we knew that the NSA spies on Americans. It’s kind of their job description. Nothing new has come to light on that front. We used to have this quaint belief that the NSA spies on specific Americans whom they had reason to believe were involved in terrorist activities, etc. We NOW know that they spy on ALL Americans. They have become an Orwellian nightmare bureaucracy. That’s the difference right there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/92 "2013-11-11T16:39:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > We used to have this quaint belief that the NSA spies on specific Americans whom they had reason to believe were involved in terrorist activities, etc. We NOW know that they spy on ALL Americans. They have become an Orwellian nightmare bureaucracy. That’s the difference right there. Well, to be Orwellian the NSA would have to be policing for thoughtcrime. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/93 "2013-11-11T16:40:24Z")
> [@](#): > > We used to have this quaint belief that the NSA spies on specific Americans whom they had reason to believe were involved in terrorist activities, etc. We did? When? I thought it was always well-known that the NSA’s techniques consisted of gathering all the information they could, from every source they could, and then datamining it exhaustively to try to figure out who were the ones who called for more specific attention. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/94 "2013-11-14T06:06:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What revelations were those? Today, we know that the NSA spies on Americans. By contrast, years ago… we knew that the NSA spies on Americans. Yearas ago the Bush Administration engaged in illegal wire tapping of American citizens. Recently it was discovered that the NSA is keeping track of every single phone call made by American citizens and the duration of those phone calls. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper even lied to congress, March of 2013, about the extent of spying. Then the existence of the PRISM program was revealed in June of 2013. So it’s incorrect to say that we knew all this years ago. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/95 "2013-11-15T03:58:20Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Going by the title, I would have to ask when scandal monger lies NOT paid off? The key word is ‘lies’… at the end of ‘scandal monger lies’ … Pursuing scandals passionately in full partisan attack gear is fine and it should pay off. But pursuing trumped up and phony scandals based upon lies upon lies and deliberate distortion of the facts should not be rewarded. I can’t think of a time that scandal mongering based on entirely on falsehood and misinformation and out of context quotes has been so dominating as in the current political environment. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/96 "2013-11-15T04:11:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If this keeps up, I think there’s a real chance Obama could lose the 2016 election. > > Seriously, though, this is the answer. Obama’s been in office long enough that the bloom is off the rose, he’s being treated as a politician and not an ideal. > > This phenomenon has nothing to do with any notions of “Obamessiah” or anything like that, it happens to almost every president. [Gallup](http://www.gallup.com/poll/116677/presidential-approval-ratings-gallup-historical-statistics-trends.aspx) has approval ratings by term for every president since Truman. For the two-termers, comparing average of first term to average of second term: > > Truman’s dropped by 19.1%. > Eisenhower’s dropped by 9.1%. > Johnson’s dropped by 23.9%. > Nixon’s dropped by 21.4%. > Reagan’s rose by 5%. > Clinton’s rose by 11%. > Bush’s dropped by 25.7%. > > Conclusion: it’d be unusual for Obama _not_ to suffer a decline in popularity in his second term. Also, Reagan and Clinton are sorely missed. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > **HA** : Excellent post with actual data. Let’s see what the OP brings to the table. > > I didn’t see any attempt by the OP to defend his thesis, which I assume is in the title of this thread. What must I defend against what Human Action Posted? The Statistics presented by Human Action do not pertain to the veracity of scandal mongers that caused a gain or loss in the second term of seven presidents. The biggest Nixon scandal was not driven by lies by the accusers. And attacks against Clinton were not based on lies in all cases. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/97 "2013-11-15T04:24:31Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I honestly did not think that would happen, as I consider myself a bit of a political outlier, but maybe the NSA scandal is waking people up. (The IRS “scandal” is a manufactured bit of right wing blather not a real scandal at all. I doubt if many progressives are falling for it, but maybe some of the brain dead faction of independents are falling for it.) I don’t see the NSA disclosures as lie driven scandal mongering by conservatives. That is policy disagreement including by Democrats and Independents. But The IRS workplace screw-up was not an Obama scandal. It was driven by conservative scandal mongers who pounced on falsehoods. Benghazi is exactly trumped up conservative blather. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/98 "2013-11-15T15:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But The IRS workplace screw-up was not an Obama scandal. It was driven by conservative scandal mongers who pounced on falsehoods. Who managed to distract away from the real scandal, that all of those political groups were approved when they shouldn’t have been. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/99 "2013-11-16T15:19:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Who managed to distract away from the real scandal, that all of those political groups were approved when they shouldn’t have been. Exactly. The point of this thread is that although the scandal mongering by conservatives is largely founded on falsehood and misrepresenting the facts and usually some well placed 33% - truth… (I won’t give them half truth) it still pays off in driving the conversation of the moment and providing political background noise that does drive the approval and effectiveness of Democrats and liberals and the left down. If that is true - then what can be done about the effectiveness? Is the answer nothing or is there an approach that can be formalized to disrupt an fake scandal like the IRS or Benghazi from having any effect at all on public perception? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262/100 "2013-11-17T04:23:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Who managed to distract away from the real scandal, that all of those political groups were approved when they shouldn’t have been. That’s the way the law is written, it mostly self-nullifies. Normally political groups get approved, what would be unusual is if many were not approved, and they tended to have a political leaning opposed to the administration. And to describe it as a “workplace screwup”. I guess that’s technically true, since the IRS counsel’s office is a “workplace”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-scandal-monger-lies-begun-to-pay-off/661262.md?page=6)