# Have the feared abuses of the USA PATRIOT Act happened (yet)?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 16, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981 "2005-12-16T21:59:09Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 16, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/1 "2005-12-16T21:59:09Z")
I had a thread on this a while ago – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=251368&page=1&pp=50](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=251368&page=1&pp=50) – but, based on this current thread – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349930](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=349930) – this is once again a timely topic.
Everybody is (quite reasonably, IMO) worried about the USA PATRIOT Act ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa\_patriot\_act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa_patriot_act)) being abused. But, so far as I’ve been able to determine, it’s all purely speculative at this point. E.g., there has been no revival of the climate of the '60s when the FBI had COINTELPRO ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cointelpro](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cointelpro)) to spy on anti-war and civil-rights groups, disrupt their activities, and insert agents provocateur.
Am I wrong? Can anyone point to anything the government has done with expanded powers since 9/11/01, that you think is an abuse of power, and that could not have been done if the PATRIOT Act had not been enacted?
Anything?
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/2 "2005-12-17T00:13:29Z")
Bump (I want to see if anyone has any…I can only think of some minor things myself. Hope ‘bumping’ is allowed…I forget, been a while since I read the rules).
-XT
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/3 "2005-12-17T00:41:27Z")
Isn’t a large part of the problem with the act the fact that the feared abuses could be happening on a daily basis, and we’d not know about it? I’m thinking of the “sneak and peek” type searches, for instance.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/4 "2005-12-17T00:55:51Z")
I will have to go for the old fashion dictum of “follow the money”
IIRC several hundred millions of dollars have already gone to enhance the FBI snooping and funding of controversial warrants and probing around libraries.
The abuse IMHO comes on the lack of accountability, like what do we have to show for all that money used to fund the act?
I do think the abuse was that the administration found a better way to package “pork”.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/5 "2005-12-17T01:38:49Z")
> [@DMC](#):
>
> Isn’t a large part of the problem with the act the fact that the feared abuses could be happening on a daily basis, and we’d not know about it? I’m thinking of the “sneak and peek” type searches, for instance.
The sneak and peek warrant provisions of the Patriot Act only delay the usual requirement of notice.
Normally, a person served with a search warrant must be told immediately – that is, when the search is done.
Under the Patriot Act, the notice can be delayed up to 90 days, or, with a judge’s approval, an additional 90 days for 180 in total.
So, while I suppose it’s possible that a spate of sneak and peak warrants have been issued in the last 180 days, and that’s why we don’t know about them… I find this possibility unlikely. More likely is the conclusion that there have not been a spate of sneak and peak warrants, in spite of the Patriot Act.
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### Author:  [@Exploding\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exploding_Kitchen)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/6 "2005-12-17T02:00:14Z")
Yup, they have.
> **[Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy-on-callers-without-courts.html)**
>
> National Security Agency officials privately voice concern about legality of eavesdropping on Americans and others inside United States without court-approved warrants, as secretly authorized by Pres Bush in wake of 9/11 attacks; at issue is NSA's...
[http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/16/bush.nsa/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/16/bush.nsa/index.html)
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/7 "2005-12-17T06:18:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Under the Patriot Act, the notice can be delayed up to 90 days, or, with a judge’s approval, an additional 90 days for 180 in total.
My understanding is that the 90 day extensions can be granted continously with approval, without restriction on the total delay, but I’ll happily be proven wrong.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/8 "2005-12-17T17:21:22Z")
[A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung’s tome on Communism called “The Little Red Book.”](http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm)
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/9 "2005-12-17T17:30:28Z")
> [@Exploding Kitchen](#):
>
> Yup, they have.
>
> [http://nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?hp&ex=1134795600&en=c7596fe0d4798785&ei=5094&partner=homepage](http://nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?hp&ex=1134795600&en=c7596fe0d4798785&ei=5094&partner=homepage)
>
> [http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/16/bush.nsa/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/16/bush.nsa/index.html)
The question was:
\*Can anyone point to anything the government has done with expanded powers since 9/11/01, that you think is an abuse of power, and that could not have been done if the PATRIOT Act had not been enacted?
\*
Your cites concern the current story about Bush’s authorization for the NSA to monitor US-to-overseas calls.
What has that got to do with the Patriot Act?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/10 "2005-12-17T17:35:43Z")
Here’s what [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) says about Sneek and Peek as of Sept '04:
> [@](#):
>
> [ACLU Ad On “Sneak-and-Peek” Searches: Overblown](http://www.factcheck.org/article259.html)
>
> …the Department of Justice reports seeking only 47 such “sneak-and-peek” warrants in the law’s first 17 months.
Note that the feds still need a warrant to do the search, but the warrant is from the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court) rather than from a “regular” court, and are not part of the public record.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/11 "2005-12-17T17:39:42Z")
> [@DMC](#):
>
> My understanding is that the 90 day extensions can be granted continously with approval, without restriction on the total delay, but I’ll happily be proven wrong.
Nope. My bad. You’re right:
18 USC § 2705
> [@](#):
>
> (a) Delay of Notification. - (1) A governmental entity acting
> under section 2703(b) of this title may -
> (A) where a court order is sought, include in the application a
> request, which the court shall grant, for an order delaying the
> notification required under section 2703(b) of this title for a
> period not to exceed ninety days, if the court determines that
> there is reason to believe that notification of the existence of
> the court order may have an adverse result described in paragraph
> (2) of this subsection
> .
> .
> .
> (2) An adverse result for the purposes of paragraph (1) of this
> subsection is -
> (A) endangering the life or physical safety of an individual;
> (B) flight from prosecution;
> (C) destruction of or tampering with evidence;
> (D) intimidation of potential witnesses; or
> (E) otherwise seriously jeopardizing an investigation or unduly
> delaying a trial.
> .
> .
> .
> (4) Extensions of the delay of notification provided in section
> 2703 of up to ninety days each may be granted by the court upon
> application, or by certification by a governmental entity, but only
> in accordance with subsection (b) of this section.
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/12 "2005-12-17T17:52:25Z")
Well, let’s see. There was that political cartoonist who got a visit from the FBI.
Anyone else remember any?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/13 "2005-12-17T18:07:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> Here’s what [Factcheck.org](http://Factcheck.org) says about Sneek and Peek as of Sept '04:
>
> Note that the feds still need a warrant to do the search, but the warrant is from the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Court) rather than from a “regular” court, and are not part of the public record.
If they’re not part of the public record, how do we **know** how many “sneak and peak” warrants the DOJ has obtained? Your cited story seems to rely on the DOJ’s self-report.
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### Author:  [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/14 "2005-12-17T18:32:08Z")
Under the provisions of the act, when the feds demand access to library, video rental, or bookstores records, they can forbid the librarians or businesses from telling anyone about the search. Because of that, we have no way of knowing how many such searches have happened. I heard about one librarian who is suing over one such search. The librarian remains anonymous, so as to stay out of prison.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/15 "2005-12-17T18:35:50Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#):
>
> Well, let’s see. There was that political cartoonist who got a visit from the FBI.
>
> Anyone else remember any?
Are we going to be providing cites with any of these recollections?
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/16 "2005-12-17T18:43:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> If they’re not part of the public record, how do we **know** how many “sneak and peak” warrants the DOJ has obtained? Your cited story seems to rely on the DOJ’s self-report.
After the expiration period, the person is notified. I assume at that point they do become part of the public record.
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/17 "2005-12-17T18:45:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> After the expiration period, the person is notified. I assume at that point they do become part of the public record.
As noted above, exactly when is that expiration period upon us?
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/18 "2005-12-17T19:05:04Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199475&highlight=political+cartoonist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199475&highlight=political+cartoonist)
My bad, it was the Secret Service.
> **[In Legal Papers Unsealed Today, Librarian Speaks of Fear of Imprisonment Over...](https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/legal-papers-unsealed-today-librarian-speaks-fear-imprisonment-over-government-gag?redirect=cpredirect%2F20260)**
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: media@aclu.orgNEW YORK - In previously sealed legal papers made public today by the American Civil Liberties Union, an unnamed librarian expressed fears of imprisonment
Librarian Sues over Gag Order.
[http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm)
Civil Rights Violations alledged, including beatings.
> **[FBI Papers Indicate Intelligence Violations](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/23/AR2005102301352.html)**
At least 287 potential violations of civil rights, more probable.
That enough for you?
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### Author:  [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/19 "2005-12-17T19:10:50Z")
Oh, and the political cartoonist was a ‘threat on the president’s life’ thing, not a Patriot Act issue. (If that wasn’t obvious by the link) My apologies.
(Man, I remember reading about how Teddy would invite people in somedays and shake their hands for hours and hours. I remember touring the White House as a knee high kid. Free Speech zones now. Damn shame. Not just Bush, world changed. Hijack ended)
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [December 17, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/20 "2005-12-17T22:15:06Z")
It’s behind the WaPo firewall now, but if it wasn’t, I’d refer you to Barton Gellman’s front-page story from November 6 of this year: “The FBI’s Secret Scrutiny: In Hunt for Terrorists, Bureau Examines Records of Ordinary Americans.”
Gellman’s story discusses the roughly 30,000 annual National Security Letters the FBI issues each year, which is about 100 _times_ as many as pre-9/11.
Such letters normally take the form of a demand to provide records to the FBI. The article states that the records can include pretty much anything - from email and website records to employment history to pawnshop transactions.
The article further says: “No one who knows about an NSL is permitted to disclose its existence for any reason, and the gag order never expires.”
The article also says, “Any of more than 60 field supervisors, and another dozen officials at FBI headquarters, may sign an NSL. No grand jury or judge reviews it, before or after delivery.”
BTW, the changes to the law governing NSLs are **not** among the Patriot Act provisions that are scheduled to expire at the end of the month.
YMMV, but I’d personally regard this as a ‘yes’ to the OP.
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