# Have the feared abuses of the USA PATRIOT Act happened (yet)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981 "2005-12-16T21:59:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/21 "2005-12-17T22:29:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s behind the WaPo firewall now, but if it wasn’t, I’d refer you to Barton Gellman’s front-page story from November 6 of this year: “The FBI’s Secret Scrutiny: In Hunt for Terrorists, Bureau Examines Records of Ordinary Americans.” > > Gellman’s story discusses the roughly 30,000 annual National Security Letters the FBI issues each year, which is about 100 _times_ as many as pre-9/11. Can you clarify how this is part of the Patriot Act? I’m just confused because you say it was also done (though at a lower frequency) prior to 9/11/01. That would seem to imply that the Patriot Act wasn’t needed. I’m not objecting to your statement, just trying to understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/22 "2005-12-17T22:34:27Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199475&highlight=political+cartoonist](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=199475&highlight=political+cartoonist) > My bad, it was the Secret Service. > > [http://www.aclu.org//safefree/patriot/20260prs20050901.html](http://www.aclu.org//safefree/patriot/20260prs20050901.html) > Librarian Sues over Gag Order. > > [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0721-01.htm) > Civil Rights Violations alledged, including beatings. > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/23/AR2005102301352.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/23/AR2005102301352.html) > At least 287 potential violations of civil rights, more probable. > > That enough for you? Enough cites, yes. Yor first one doesn’t involve the Patriot Act, does it? Your second cite is certainly relevant to the question. It address behavior by federal officials that is clearly legal under the Patriot Act, and raises the spectre of how that behavior may be undesirable. Your third cite is on the fence. While it claims to address Patriot Act violations, the actual wrongs it alleges – mistreatment in a federal detention center, for instance – are independent of the Patriot Act. In other words, the Patriot Act does not authorize the beating of someone in federal detention. That’s illegal WITH the Patriot Act, and would be illegal WITHOUT the Patriot Act. It’s unclear to me how its relevant to a discussion of wether the provisions of the Patriot Act create wrongs. Your fourth cite involves not the Patriot Act, but the powers granted under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. ---
**Author:** ![Jotun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jotun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jotun)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/23 "2005-12-17T22:42:27Z")
I’m surprised nobody has brought up the perception of the USA PATRIOT act. As an outsider, I always thought that America was among the most free countries in the world. I have no doubt that it still is, to some degree. However, at least to me, the USA PATRIOT act _seems_ like a huge infringment on personal liberty and privacy. Which are values that are generally regarded to be held by every American. It’s unfortunate that it had to come to this, after 9/11 and everything. I suppose that doesn’t exactly count as “abuse” of the power. I think the USA PATRIOT act itself is an abuse of power, and anathema to what most people believe America is all about. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/24 "2005-12-17T22:52:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Can you clarify how this is part of the Patriot Act? I’m just confused because you say it was also done (though at a lower frequency) prior to 9/11/01. That would seem to imply that the Patriot Act wasn’t needed. I’m not objecting to your statement, just trying to understand it. From the article: > [@](#): > > “National security letters,” created in the 1970s for espionage and terrorism investigations, originated as narrow exceptions in consumer privacy law, enabling the FBI to review in secret the customer records of suspected foreign agents. The Patriot Act, and Bush administration guidelines for its use, transformed those letters by permitting clandestine scrutiny of U.S. residents and visitors who are not alleged to be terrorists or spies. And: > [@](#): > > Under the old legal test, the FBI had to have “specific and articulable” reasons to believe the records it gathered in secret belonged to a terrorist or a spy. Now the bureau needs only to certify that the records are “sought for” or “relevant to” an investigation “to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.” So that’s what the Patriot Act did. And just to make you feel more secure about the government’s handling of these records: > [@](#): > > The burgeoning use of national security letters coincides with an unannounced decision to deposit all the information they yield into government data banks – and to share those private records widely, in the federal government and beyond. In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed. Late last month, President Bush signed Executive Order 13388, expanding access to those files for “state, local and tribal” governments and for “appropriate private sector entities,” which are not defined. AFAICT, the decisions about what to _do_ with these records, once they’ve got them, weren’t made by the Patriot Act, but if it weren’t for the PA, the government wouldn’t be able to play fast and loose with the records in the first place. It’s not just Democrats that are unhappy with the loosening of standards on the NSLs: > [@](#): > > “The beef with the NSLs is that they don’t have even a pretense of judicial or impartial scrutiny,” said former representative Robert L. Barr Jr. (Ga.), who finds himself allied with the American Civil Liberties Union after a career as prosecutor, CIA analyst and conservative GOP stalwart. “There’s no checks and balances whatever on them. It is simply some bureaucrat’s decision that they want information, and they can basically just go and get it.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/25 "2005-12-17T22:58:30Z")
I see no reason to assume that any abuses from the Patriot Act would be made known to the public. That’s one of the problems with all the secrecy involved…it’s _secret_. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/26 "2005-12-17T23:01:35Z")
> [@Jotun](#): > > I’m surprised nobody has brought up the perception of the USA PATRIOT act. > > \ > > I suppose that doesn’t exactly count as “abuse” of the power. I think the USA PATRIOT act itself is an abuse of power, and anathema to what most people believe America is all about. The thing is, perceptions are easy to manipulate. If critics of _anything_ can’t point to chapter and verse and explain what the problem is, then all they’re doing is handwaving and muddying the waters of the discussion. Too much of that goes on already in our national discourse. Here at the Dope, we try to combat that tendency. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/27 "2005-12-17T23:13:22Z")
> [@Jotun](#): > > I’m surprised nobody has brought up the perception of the USA PATRIOT act. As an outsider, I always thought that America was among the most free countries in the world. I have no doubt that it still is, to some degree. > > However, at least to me, the USA PATRIOT act _seems_ like a huge infringment on personal liberty and privacy. Which are values that are generally regarded to be held by every American. > > It’s unfortunate that it had to come to this, after 9/11 and everything. > > I suppose that doesn’t exactly count as “abuse” of the power. I think the USA PATRIOT act itself is an abuse of power, and anathema to what most people believe America is all about. Why is it that a majority of people (Americans, that is) favored the Patriot Act, if it was such anathema to what most of them believed? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/28 "2005-12-17T23:17:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it that a majority of people (Americans, that is) favored the Patriot Act, if it was such anathema to what most of them believed? Because they’re morons. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/29 "2005-12-17T23:34:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it that a majority of people (Americans, that is) favored the Patriot Act, if it was such anathema to what most of them believed? At what point in time did the majority of the American people favor the Patriot Act, and how much did they know about it at the time? I think the answer to your question is a matter of _perceptions_ about the Act, and not a matter of genuine understanding by more than a handful of Americans. Hell, even on this board, each PA discussion seems to have to deal with a great deal of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/30 "2005-12-17T23:39:38Z")
In re my first cite, you are correct, and I had previously said as much. In re my third cite, the expanded powers given the FBI in the Patriot Act were, as I understand it, responsible for the agents being where they were, or the persons in custody being where they were. Were it not for the Act, the abuses would not have taken place. In re my fourth cite, I believe it covers powers of the FISA expanded within the Patriot Act, and then promptly abused. Am I in error? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/31 "2005-12-17T23:52:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > At what point in time did the majority of the American people favor the Patriot Act, and how much did they know about it at the time? > > I think the answer to your question is a matter of _perceptions_ about the Act, and not a matter of genuine understanding by more than a handful of Americans. Hell, even on this board, each PA discussion seems to have to deal with a great deal of ignorance. [This post I made in the other thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6910027&postcount=14) gives a good breakdown. Basically, most of the proivisions have majority support. People don’t like the “sneak and peek” provision, though. > [@DtC](#): > > Because they’re morons. Sadly, too many Americans are like my Mom. I wouldn’t call my mom a “moron”, but she is fond of saying: If you haven’t done anything wrong, you don’t have anything to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![Jotun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jotun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jotun)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/32 "2005-12-18T00:11:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The thing is, perceptions are easy to manipulate. If critics of _anything_ can’t point to chapter and verse and explain what the problem is, then all they’re doing is handwaving and muddying the waters of the discussion. > > Too much of that goes on already in our national discourse. Here at the Dope, we try to combat that tendency. I understand that. It’s certainly a shame that critics of the USA PATRIOT act would take that route instead of having an honest discussion of the real problems the act could cause (okay, you can laugh now 😛 ). I’m sure there are great reasons for the USA PATRIOT act to exist. I might be quite alone in this thread on this, but I think, for better or worse, all American’s gave up a significant amount of their liberty and privacy with the passing of this act. That other countries might see America as less free than before this act was passed might not matter to Americans at all. Why should it? It is, however, quite confusing that a people so devoted to their liberty would easily agree to an act such as this. > [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it that a majority of people (Americans, that is) favored the Patriot Act, if it was such anathema to what most of them believed? I meant “most people outside the country believe”, if that makes a difference. I believe (and if the posts I have read of yours in the past is any guide, you’ll disagree with me 🙂 ) that the USA PATRIOT act was accepted because after 9/11 the administration used the public’s very understandable fear to quickly pass the act and subsequently give authorities significantly more power to spy on it’s own citizens. It could be argued that it’s all for the greater good, and perhaps it is. If I am wrong, it’s still just as confusing that the people of America would favour such an act. I’d say the majority of people in America, and elsewhere, value privacy and freedom. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/33 "2005-12-18T00:15:40Z")
> [@Jotun](#): > > If I am wrong, it’s still just as confusing that the people of America would favour such an act. I’d say the majority of people in America, and elsewhere, value privacy and freedom. Read the link in my post #31. It’s not that simple. The Patriot Act has lots of provisions, and some are very popular while others are not popular at all. ---
**Author:** ![Jotun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@Jotun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jotun)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/34 "2005-12-18T00:41:50Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Read the link in my post #31. It’s not that simple. The Patriot Act has lots of provisions, and some are very popular while others are not popular at all. Oh yes, I read the link. However the parts that were less well received were part of the USA PATRIOT act. They weren’t seperate acts on their own. I never did contend that the majority of Americans disliked the entire USA PATRIOT act. Obviously provisions such as the “sneak and peak” were not at all popular. Couldn’t the USA PATRIOT act have been modified before passing it to eliminate those particular provisions that were sure to be unpopular with the majority of Americans? Regardless of how effective those unpopular provisions are, the administration could have saved themselves a lot of bad press if they were to have softened or left out those provisions. ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/35 "2005-12-18T00:50:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are we going to be providing cites with any of these recollections? > [@](#): > > NEW BEDFORD – A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by federal agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung’s tome on Communism called “The Little Red Book.” Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library’s interlibrary loan program. The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand’s class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents’ home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said. The professors said the student was told by the agents that the book is on a “watch list,” and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further. [http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm](http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/36 "2005-12-18T00:55:49Z")
I clicked on the “Submit Reply”-button too early. Just from the same link: > [@](#): > > Dr. Williams said he had been planning to offer a course on terrorism next semester, but is reconsidering, because it might put his students at risk. “I shudder to think of all the students I’ve had monitoring al-Qaeda Web sites, what the government must think of that,” he said. “Mao Tse-Tung is completely harmless.” If someone wants to test it, I can give you the links to al-Quida and ‘nearby’-links. Henry ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/37 "2005-12-18T02:43:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is it that a majority of people (Americans, that is) favored the Patriot Act, if it was such anathema to what most of them believed? I find that a little coy, buddy. It was passed in late October 2001. That’s just six weeks after the towers were hit. At that point people were so damn scared they’d have approved of bills that entitled the government to set up death camps for anyone who LOOKED middle eastern, regardless of any other evidence. For me, the PATRIOT act (I hate cute acronyms, FTR) strikes me as one of those ‘trust us, we’re the good guys’ measures from the government. I wouldn’t want something like that on the books even if God himself were President. Call me a cynic but given a chance to operate and abuse power government WILL operate and abuse power. Give me accountability, sunshine laws, open database access for all, and any other measure that fully allows citizens to see what their government is up to. I’m just not a trusting soul when it comes to politicians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/38 "2005-12-18T03:02:35Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > I find that a little coy, buddy. It was passed in late October 2001. That’s just six weeks after the towers were hit. At that point people were so damn scared they’d have approved of bills that entitled the government to set up death camps for anyone who LOOKED middle eastern, regardless of any other evidence. The cite I gave in post #31 is from Aug '05, and shows that a majority of Americans support the Patriot Act. > [@](#): > > For me, the PATRIOT act (I hate cute acronyms, FTR)… That one is particularly disgusting. What do you call people who oppose the Patriot Act? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/39 "2005-12-18T03:02:40Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > I find that a little coy, buddy. It was passed in late October 2001. That’s just six weeks after the towers were hit. At that point people were so damn scared they’d have approved of bills that entitled the government to set up death camps for anyone who LOOKED middle eastern, regardless of any other evidence. IIRC, the act was passed largely before anyone got a chance to even read it. This [SF Chronicle piece from 2002](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/21/IN83832.DTL) backs up my recollection: > [@](#): > > the recent USA PATRIOT Act (still being written after it was passed, and thus unread by the Congress which passed it) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981/40 "2005-12-18T11:54:30Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Read the link in my post #31. It’s not that simple. The Patriot Act has lots of provisions, and some are very popular while others are not popular at all. I’m less than convinced that some of those descriptions are apt, in the sense of giving respondents a true picture of the workings of the Patriot Act. For instance, I don’t see any explanation of what a National Security Letter is, or how it can be used, or how often it _is_ used, anywhere in that poll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-feared-abuses-of-the-usa-patriot-act-happened-yet/335981.md?page=3)