# Have the Russians already lost interest in democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881 "2005-12-31T20:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/1 "2005-12-31T20:04:09Z")
President Vladimir Putin of Russia just got Parliament to approve a bill bringing non-governmental organizations (NGOs) under state control: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap\_on\_re\_eu/russia\_ngos\_1](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap_on_re_eu/russia_ngos_1) The post-Soviet Russian Federation has turned out to be a kind of Bonapartist or presidentialist authoritarian state. The incipient democracy that followed the collapse of Communism has been steadily rolled back. Putin has established state control over most media, and replaced the elected provincial governors with presidential appointees. And so far as we can tell from here, nobody seems to mind very much. At any rate, other than nationalist rebels like the Chechens, nobody seems to be protesting or bucking the system. There was a rash of public demonstrations this year against the government’s decision to slash pension benefits, but in hindsight that was just letting off steam; nothing came of it. Have the Russian people simply lost interest in democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/2 "2005-12-31T21:16:39Z")
I was going to post something similar. Russia has been descending back into authoritarianism for a while now. Last week Putin’s economic advisor resigned, [saying this](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/27/international/europe/27cnd-russia.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1136063507-RH++Hgbf87OOKet7ryFg/g): > [@](#): > > “Six years ago, when I took up this post, I devoted my work to creating the conditions for increasing economic freedoms in Russia,” he said, according to the ITAR-TASS news agency. “In the last year it has become clear that not only has economic policy become different, but the economic model itself in the country has, too.” > > Mr. Illarionov also struck at the Kremlin’s centralization of power and muzzling of critics. “There has been a change in the political regime,” he said. “It is one thing to work in a partially free country such as Russia was six years ago. But it is quite another when the country has ceased to be politically free.” This guy was one of the leading reformers in the country and close to Putin. He’s given up. The big question is what this all means. Russia is a pretty small country, economically speaking, but it has clout because of nuclear weapons and its willingness to be an arms broker to anyone who needs whatever it is they have to sell. A dangerous combination. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/3 "2005-12-31T21:19:27Z")
It’s not a loss of interest, it’s a demonstrated failure. The life of your average Russian citizen (assuming you don’t want to be politically active) is a lot worse than it was. People are longing for the days when there were breadlines, because that meant there was bread. They are looking for any government that can shut down the organized criminals and street thugs that now rule them. It’s hard to really overemphasize how bad things are there. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/4 "2005-12-31T22:23:20Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > It’s not a loss of interest, it’s a demonstrated failure. The life of your average Russian citizen (assuming you don’t want to be politically active) is a lot worse than it was. People are longing for the days when there were breadlines, because that meant there was bread. They are looking for any government that can shut down the organized criminals and street thugs that now rule them. It’s hard to really overemphasize how bad things are there. Yes, you certainly can overstate things. You just did. Russia’s economic growth has been exceeding estimates for the past seven years, and it’s growing at almost twice the rate of the U.S., and about four or five times the European average. Rusians have a PPP now of about $10,000/yr, which is higher than the world average, but on the low side for industrialized countries. There’s no doubt that Russia had a really hard time of it in the 1990’s. The country completely collapsed and had to be rebuilt. But the free market reforms were working. From the [OECD](http://www.olis.oecd.org/olis/2004doc.nsf/43bb6130e5e86e5fc12569fa005d004c/90589b763f603f1ec1256f240079e104/%24FILE/JT00170353.PDF): > [@](#): > > Russian growth in 1999-2003 averaged slightly above 6.5 per cent per annum. Annual growth rates, partly driven by changes in the terms of trade, fluctuated between 4.7 and 10 per cent3 (Table 2). It seems reasonable to assume that the trend growth rate has been roughly 5.5 per cent (see below). The drivers of growth, however, changed significantly during this period. In the immediate aftermath of the crisis, the main contribution to growth came from net exports. However, domestic demand took over as the dominant driver by mid-1999. Wage growth has been good, especially in the cities, and much of it is underreported because it occurs in the grey markets. Unemployment has also declined from 13% to 8% in that period, inflation is down from 84% to 12%, exports have doubled, imports have increased 30%, and the government is now running budget surpluses after revenues increase almost 50% due to the growing economy. So things were improving just fine - but all that’s in jeopardy now, due to Putin’s turn back to authoritarianism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/5 "2006-01-01T00:30:51Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So things were improving just fine - but all that’s in jeopardy now, due to Putin’s turn back to authoritarianism. 😕 If I read your post right, you were attributing Russia’s economic growth to “free market reforms.” And Putin, for all his dictatorial tendencies, is not even moving towards re-nationalizing or re-socializing any parts of the private economy – is he? (Authoritarianism is one thing, totalitarianism quite another.) ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/6 "2006-01-01T00:43:24Z")
Just an observation–my Russian SIL said after a visit home last summer that things were looking more generally prosperous around town. Her parents were able to get a phone, too. ---
**Author:** ![cactus\_waltz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@cactus\_waltz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cactus_waltz)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/7 "2006-01-01T01:07:42Z")
Just a nit-pick: democracy and capitalism are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/8 "2006-01-01T01:09:58Z")
> [@cactus waltz](#): > > Just a nit-pick: democracy and capitalism are not the same. No, they’re not . . . and at present Russia seems to have the second but not the first. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/9 "2006-01-01T01:26:53Z")
I think Putin has lost interest, but “the Russians?” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/10 "2006-01-01T01:36:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think Putin has lost interest, but “the Russians?” My point was, they seem to be putting up with it all very quietly, for the most part. And they have the power to rebel if they really want to, they proved that in 1991 and how could they have forgotten already? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/11 "2006-01-01T03:16:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My point was, they seem to be putting up with it all very quietly, for the most part. And they have the power to rebel if they really want to, they proved that in 1991 and how could they have forgotten already? Ummmm…1991 wasn’t much of a rebellion. It was more of the final passing of an illusion among a long disillusioned people. It wasn’t a quest by strong leaders to make a better life. It was a collective agreement to stop pretending. Politically, it was enabled by the higher ups realizing that it was time to cut their losses, divide up state resources, and find something more productive to do. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/12 "2006-01-01T08:14:05Z")
Keep in mind, it’s not like Russia ever HAD democracy, even before communism took over. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/13 "2006-01-01T08:49:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My point was, they seem to be putting up with it all very quietly, for the most part. And they have the power to rebel if they really want to, they proved that in 1991 and how could they have forgotten already? The people certainly did not rebel in 1991. I don’t want to make guesses about Russian culture because I don’t know it. But it’s like **Guinastasia** says: very few Russians are old enough to remember the country as it was prior to the USSR. Those who were born after 1991 don’t have much political power and I doubt they remember real democracy - they’d be more used to a political system that was just in major flux. While I doubt many Russians are happy with what Putin is doing, I’m not sure they would know how to go about advocating democratic reforms and they may have more pressing concerns. Iran is sometimes cited as a country where democratic revolution is inevitable because of a young, dissatisfied population. If Wikipedia is correct, Russia’s population is actually aging and declining. That may be another factor. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/14 "2006-01-01T16:43:44Z")
On economic improvement: it has hit some people much more than others, and some regions much more than others. Big cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg, and younger people who are better able to adapt to the new systems, fare much better than small rural areas or retired people dependent on miniscule state pensions. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/15 "2006-01-01T16:52:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If Wikipedia is correct, Russia’s population is actually aging and declining. That may be another factor. Actually, they’re dying off at an alarming rate. [Here’s](http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1674948,00.html) just the first article on the subject I found on google; there are tons more. The birth rate is low, abortion is high (and leading to ever greater infertility), the life expectancy has been shrinking, alcoholism and suicide are rampant, huge swathes of the interior of the country are being abandoned. It’s incredible. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/16 "2006-01-01T19:06:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Keep in mind, it’s not like Russia ever HAD democracy, even before communism took over. [But Russians did](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veche), way back when in the days of Novgorod the Great and Kievan Rus’. And the demographic crisis in Russia is unbelievable – either they get their shit together fast, or 100 years from now we’re going to see the Islamic Republic of Northern Asia. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/17 "2006-01-01T21:13:15Z")
OK. here is a [cite](http://vn.vladnews.ru/News/upd23_1.HTM) from the [Vladivostok News](http://vn.vladnews.ru/) (where I go for news about Russia’s far east) stating: > [@](#): > > The survey, which was taken in October 2005 by the National Public Opinion Studies Center VTsIOM among about 1,600 people in Russia’s 153 cities, towns and villages, established that only 23 percent of the respondents approved of the collapse, as opposed to 66 percent who disapprove. 6 percent said they do not care. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/18 "2006-01-01T23:06:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The people certainly did not rebel in 1991. I don’t want to make guesses about Russian culture because I don’t know it. But it’s like **Guinastasia** says: very few Russians are old enough to remember the country as it was prior to the USSR. Those who were born after 1991 don’t have much political power and I doubt they remember real democracy - they’d be more used to a political system that was just in major flux. Even before the USSR, the Tsars were absolute monarchs. There was a parliament, the _duma_ starting in 1905 but it didn’t have much power and when they forced the Tsar to abdicate in 1917, they had a provisional government that was overthrown by the Bolsheviks shortly afterwards. So there wouldn’t be anyone alive who’d remember any kind of democratic system, so perhaps it’s a case of not being able to care about democracy, since they don’t know what they’re missing? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/19 "2006-01-02T00:01:48Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Even before the USSR, the Tsars were absolute monarchs. Right, but I’d think that even an absolute monarch in a pre-industrial country would afford a greater degree of individual freedom than the Soviet government that followed. Not by choice so much as by circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/20 "2006-01-02T11:53:46Z")
I think Russia was never a good example of a rising democracy… and its becoming less so. They aren’t alone though in being dissapointed with democracy. Polls in Latin America indicate that a simple majority of people would accept a more rigid political regime that brought prosperity instead of democracy that doesn’t bring prosperity. (Yep… while Bush is talking about democracy in the Middle East he has all but neglected Latin America which is one of the biggest in Democratic countries. Democracy is failing to provide or charma in the American “backyard”.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881.md?page=2)