# Have the Russians already lost interest in democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881 "2005-12-31T20:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/21 "2006-01-02T12:31:12Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > They aren’t alone though in being dissapointed with democracy. Polls in Latin America indicate that a simple majority of people would accept a more rigid political regime that brought prosperity instead of democracy that doesn’t bring prosperity. Frankly, I think a lot of Americans believe the same thing, except we arn’t even getting the ‘prosperity’ part. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/22 "2006-01-02T18:26:46Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > They aren’t alone though in being dissapointed with democracy. Polls in Latin America indicate that a simple majority of people would accept a more rigid political regime that brought prosperity instead of democracy that doesn’t bring prosperity. > > (Yep… while Bush is talking about democracy in the Middle East he has all but neglected Latin America which is > one of the biggest in Democratic countries. Democracy is failing to provide or charma in the American “backyard”.) The difference is that, despite any public disillusionment, democracy **is** on the rise in Latin American and has been for more than a decade now. How many Latin American countries remain that do not have elected governments? And how many were there in 1990? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/23 "2006-01-02T20:43:09Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Frankly, I think a lot of Americans believe the same thing, except we arn’t even getting the ‘prosperity’ part. Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing while waiting in the bread line this morning. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/24 "2006-01-08T12:47:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The difference is that, despite any public disillusionment, democracy **is** on the rise in Latin American and has been for more than a decade now. How many Latin American countries remain that do not have elected governments? And how many were there in 1990? The number of democratic parties in Latin America is the same for over a decade if I’m not mistaken. So its not ON THE RISE… its hit the ceiling. Cuba is the only one left I think. Its downhill from now on… with the failure of populist lefties its all about bitching about democracy. If a few countries go beyond that… I don’t know. Guys like Chavez aren’t exactly a good example of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/25 "2006-01-08T15:14:38Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Guys like Chavez aren’t exactly a good example of democracy. 😕 Why not? He was elected and he has gone on having elections, in which, in principle, his own party could be defeated. It was the opposition’s own decision to drop out of the latest one. See [http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2443/](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2443/). ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/26 "2006-01-08T15:50:17Z")
> [@](#): > > by **Brainglutton** > > No, they’re not . . . and at present Russia seems to have the second [Capitalism -by me] but not the first [Democracy -by me]. At one point they had a decent bit of Democracy, but they’re losing that. They _never_ had a truly free market. It was better back in '93 or so, but then, of course, things were just coming off the Communist era and it was all in chaos. But even then, the industry wasn’t sold off fairly. It was stripped piecemeal and handed off to important people. And almost anyone, important or not, who got a piece of the pie did so through bribery and corruption, another legacy of the Soviet era. Putin has also nationalized some industries, mostly in the energy sector. He’s not back to total state control and probably won’t go all that way, but he’s heading in that general direciton. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/27 "2006-01-09T04:19:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right, but I’d think that even an absolute monarch in a pre-industrial country would afford a greater degree of individual freedom than the Soviet government that followed. Not by choice so much as by circumstance. Eh, that’s true. You got me there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/28 "2006-01-09T04:26:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right, but I’d think that even an absolute monarch in a pre-industrial country would afford a greater degree of individual freedom than the Soviet government that followed. Not by choice so much as by circumstance. True enough. Pre-1917 Russia was a despotism tempered by incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/29 "2006-01-09T11:41:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Why not? He was elected and he has gone on having elections, in which, in principle, his own party could be defeated. It was the opposition’s own decision to drop out of the latest one. See [http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2443/](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2443/). Was I attacking his legitimacy ? Nope. I didn’t accuse him of not being elected. He is a bad example of an elected official who is a demagogue, populist, braggart and plays the confrontation with the US too much. I think he is not a good example of democracy… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/30 "2006-01-09T14:29:28Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > He is a bad example of an elected official who is a demagogue, populist, braggart and plays the confrontation with the US too much. I think he is not a good example of democracy… [terry pratchett’s _thud!]_ OTTO VON CHRIEK: [discussing, with Commander Vimes, the possibility that his newspaper’s coverage of a prominent dwarf’s murder might spark a dwarf-troll riot] Dat’s freedom. No vun ever said it vas _nice._ [tp _t!]_ ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/31 "2006-01-09T14:51:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right, but I’d think that even an absolute monarch in a pre-industrial country would afford a greater degree of individual freedom than the Soviet government that followed. Not by choice so much as by circumstance. Not too much more. The Okrana was in exactly the same business as the KGB. ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/32 "2006-01-09T22:14:17Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Actually, they’re dying off at an alarming rate. [Here’s](http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1674948,00.html) just the first article on the subject I found on google; there are tons more. The birth rate is low, abortion is high (and leading to ever greater infertility), the life expectancy has been shrinking, alcoholism and suicide are rampant, huge swathes of the interior of the country are being abandoned. It’s incredible. You’d think that kind of thing would result in a population decrease - but it didn’t. Life in the former republics sucks so much their residents migrate to Russia and make up for the natives lack of interest in childbearing. Believe it or not there is actually somewhat of an immigration problem there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/33 "2006-01-09T22:18:27Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not too much more. The Okrana was in exactly the same business as the KGB. But they weren’t nearly as good at it. (Which might be attributable to improved technology more than anything else.) ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/34 "2006-01-09T23:03:15Z")
> [@faldureon](#): > > You’d think that kind of thing would result in a population decrease - but it didn’t. Life in the former republics sucks so much their residents migrate to Russia and make up for the natives lack of interest in childbearing. Believe it or not there is actually somewhat of an immigration problem there. I’ve heard about the immigration from the former republics, but as I understand it that still doesn’t begin to make up for the population decline. [This](http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5358255) article from this week’s economist forecasts Russia’s population will fall by 22% by 2050; I don’t see their methodology, but the Economist is usually pretty thorough and I’m guessing they’re including immigrants in that equation. Other studies I’ve seen indicate the same thing. Do you have anything to indicate that the immigrants will make up the difference? Even more amazing is that by that same measure in the Economist the Ukraine’s population will fall by _43%_ in the same time period! Incredible! ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/35 "2006-01-09T23:22:43Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > I’ve heard about the immigration from the former republics, but as I understand it that still doesn’t begin to make up for the population decline. [This](http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5358255) article from this week’s economist forecasts Russia’s population will fall by 22% by 2050; I don’t see their methodology, but the Economist is usually pretty thorough and I’m guessing they’re including immigrants in that equation. Other studies I’ve seen indicate the same thing. Do you have anything to indicate that the immigrants will make up the difference? > > Even more amazing is that by that same measure in the Economist the Ukraine’s population will fall by _43%_ in the same time period! Incredible! The best part is this might not effect those living in Russia by then all that negatively. Less people=more oil/gas profits per capita and its the regions without access to that money that are dying off the fastest. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/36 "2006-01-09T23:49:39Z")
> [@faldureon](#): > > The best part is this might not effect those living in Russia by then all that negatively. Less people=more oil/gas profits per capita and its the regions without access to that money that are dying off the fastest. True 'nuff! Actually, the whole point of the article I linked to was that shrinking populations aren’t necessarily a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/37 "2006-01-10T18:18:10Z")
There’s no Democracy without independent judiciary and the Rule of Law. You heard it here first. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/38 "2006-01-10T18:32:02Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > There’s no Democracy without independent judiciary and the Rule of Law. > > You heard it here first. So . . . Does Russia, at present, **have** an independent judiciary? None of the sources I’ve read really touch on that. Actually, BTW, democracy **is** possible (whether it is desirable is another matter) without an independent judiciary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian\_democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy) ---
**Author:** ![Timchik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@Timchik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Timchik)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/39 "2006-01-10T20:36:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So . . . Does Russia, at present, **have** an independent judiciary? None of the sources I’ve read really touch on that. Formally, yes it does. The [Russian Constitution](http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/ch7.html) explicitly proclaims the independence of the judicial system. In practice? Google “Basmanny justice” (named for the Moscow courthouse where a lot of the most politically tilted rulings are issued). I don’t have a good English-language cite (if you read Russian, [Novaya Gazeta](http://www.novayagazeta.ru) is a good resource and the best mostly independent newspaper left), but the court system, after achieving a measure of independence (political if not economic) under Yeltsin, has undergone slow erosion since 2000. Any balanced review of the Khodorkovsky trial will feature the decisions of the Basmanny court prominently. As for the OP, I wouldn’t say Russians have exactly given up on democracy, but rather they’re given up on “democracy”. It seems to me the [survey](http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/01/10/013.html) that found they prefer a strong leader to democracy is reflective of a realistic perception that the former is at least a possibility (and with it the hope that at least some of the corruption and abuses will be dealt with), while the latter is remote at best. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/40 "2006-01-10T21:07:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right, but I’d think that even an absolute monarch in a pre-industrial country would afford a greater degree of individual freedom than the Soviet government that followed. Not by choice so much as by circumstance. I doubt it. I’m no scholar in Russian history (that’d be my mom), but from what she’s told me, conditions pre-Lenin weren’t much better than post-Lenin. Perhaps if Kerenski (sp?) had succeeded in his goals things would’ve improved, but he didn’t. You had an all-powerful Czar and his family, some nobles (for whom life probably was pretty good) and a whole lotta serfs working the farms (for whom life wasn’t so good). You know the drill: “May God bless and keep the Czar…far away from us.” From what me mum’s said, Russians have never had democracy, never known democracy, going back hundreds of years. It’s oppression on a pretty grand scale. And that’s all it’s ever been; all the people have ever known. And we expect them to turn into a fully-functioning, grand American-style democracy in a coupla decades? Not going to happen. FWIW, my Russian co-worker (emigrated to the US in 1994 from Moscow, I believe) says that things there now are not good. From what she says, she recently had a relative killed there recently, on contract. She said it was astonishing how cheaply you could hire a hitman now. She said that she and her husband left because they (apparently) were small business owners and didn’t feel safe there anymore - they’d received enough phone calls and threats that they called it quits. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881.md?page=3)