# Have the Russians already lost interest in democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881 "2005-12-31T20:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/41 "2006-01-10T21:39:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, BTW, democracy **is** possible (whether it is desirable is another matter) without an independent judiciary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian\_democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy) Well, speaking of Athenian democracy, the answer of course is that it’s absolutely impossible anywhere in the modern world, and nobody really has any interest in it anymore (except the demagogues and assorted rubble-rousers). To repeat after **Timchik** , formally Russia has an independent judiciary, which may, - given enough time,- establish itself as influential as in the US. Such things take long time. So far, there is no [John Marshall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marshall) anywhere in sight. Certainly, there is practically nothing resembling the Rule of Law in Russia nowadays. I don’t think American people are all that interested in Democracy, either. American system is not really based on Democracy and Freedom; it’s based on Law and Order. Americans (wisely) follow the rules and enjoy the blessings of living in orderly state, such as free press and so on. Russians have few rules and innate desire to break all of them, which leads to protracted periods of Autocracy, occasionally broken by _Bunt_ (uprising) and _Smuta_ (times of trouble). ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/42 "2006-01-11T00:11:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, BTW, democracy **is** possible (whether it is desirable is another matter) without an independent judiciary. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian\_democracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy) This may not be true. From your own cite: > [@](#): > > The Athenians themselves however were more likely to talk about it \ as going back to Solon… > [@](#): > > …a famous Athenian lawmaker… > … > In 594 BC he was made archon of Attica, in order to subdue the civil disorder that was rampant there. He introduced a set of ordinances, _seisachtheia_, that did much to improve conditions. His ordinances were such a success that he was given the task of rewriting the constitution, creating what was later called the Solonian Constitution, which incorporated the first elements of democracy in world history. > … > He introduced the trial by jury; military obligations were codified based on class; the Council of the Four Hundred (or Boule) and the Areopagus were established as the main consultative and administrative bodies; he introduced many new laws, especially those covering debt and taxation; he remodelled the calendar; he created a court for the lowest classes called the Heliaia and allowed it to audit those passing from the office of archon for each year; and he regulated weights and measures… His laws were written onto special wooden cylinders and placed in the Acropolis. > … > After having his constitution accepted, Solon exacted the promise of the city that his constitution would not change unless he were to change it himself, and then he left Athens for over ten years… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/43 "2006-01-11T01:14:45Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > This may not be true. From your own cite: Yes . . . But whether the Athenian democracy can really be traced to Solon is debatable. Most authorities date it from Cleisthenes. And the system notably lacked a set of specialized career judges, whose decisions might have precedential effect in interpretation of the constitution or the law. Judges, like other public officials, were chosen by lot and served for short terms. And the Assembly was not bound by a fixed constitution set above its own authority; it could do practically anything it liked if the votes could be mustered. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/44 "2006-01-11T15:47:32Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > He is a bad example of an elected official who is a demagogue, populist, braggart and plays the confrontation with the US too much. I think he is not a good example of democracy… Change just one word in this sentence and I would call it an exact description of George Bush. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/45 "2006-01-11T18:31:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes . . . But whether the Athenian democracy can really be traced to Solon is debatable. Most authorities date it from Cleisthenes. And the system notably lacked a set of specialized career judges, whose decisions might have precedential effect in interpretation of the constitution or the law. Judges, like other public officials, were chosen by lot and served for short terms. And the Assembly was not bound by a fixed constitution set above its own authority; it could do practically anything it liked if the votes could be mustered. Athenians still had the revered Constitution and they had venerated Laws, “_written onto special wooden cylinders and placed in the Acropolis_”. When I spoke of ‘independent judiciary’, I didn’t mean a caste of career judges. What is indespensable for Democracy is a code of Laws and popular consent to abide by them. Perhaps in their best times, the Athenians managed such a feat by the popular assembly of citizens that were wise enough to agree on the best measures for the common good. Just recently, Schwarzenegger tried to let people to decide directly on his initiatives in California. Funny thing, so called Democrats were extremely critical of the whole idea. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/46 "2006-01-12T07:18:29Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > …People are longing for the days when there were breadlines, because that meant there was bread… I was in Russia 2 years ago and there was bread and most other things that are available in the West. Even Cherry Coke which is not available here in Australia. But things are not very affordable compared to Western countries. Prices seem low until you realise that many people only earn the equivalent of US $100 per month. Often less. From what I observed most younger people liked the new freedom but most older people longed for a return to the Soviet era. There are still statues of Lenin in the town I visited (Tomsk in Siberia). ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/47 "2006-01-12T10:40:44Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I was in Russia 2 years ago and there was bread and most other things that are available in the West. Even Cherry Coke which is not available here in Australia. > > But things are not very affordable compared to Western countries. Prices seem low until you realise that many people only earn the equivalent of US $100 per month. Often less. But is that a consequence of demcracy or simply one of access to western goods? If you went to Bombay, wouldn’t it be the same situation\> ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/48 "2006-01-12T14:29:34Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > But is that a consequence of demcracy or simply one of access to western goods? If you went to Bombay, wouldn’t it be the same situation\> For middle class people in India, things are very affordable, especially services. The standard of living for middle class Indians is, in my opinion, higher than here in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/49 "2006-01-12T15:59:21Z")
I think India is a democratic state, officially at least. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/50 "2006-01-12T18:22:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I think India is a democratic state, officially at least. It’s officially democratic, and to the best of my knowledge that’s what it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/51 "2006-01-12T18:30:20Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Just recently, Schwarzenegger tried to let people to decide directly on his initiatives in California. Funny thing, so called Democrats were extremely critical of the whole idea. :dubious: IANA Californian, but based on such news coverage as I saw, they were critical of the **content** of the proposals. (And the voters ultimately agreed.) And if your opponent puts forth something you find objectionable in a legislature, you try to bottle it up in committee; if your opponent proposes a referendum on it, you try to block the referendum. That’s routine politics. But it’s not the same thing as being opposed to representative democracy in the one case or direct democracy in the other. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/52 "2006-01-13T02:30:37Z")
Not true. So called Democrats were screaming about how Democratic referendum was a complete waste of money. Under true Democracy every proposition would be voted up or down by the People, not blocked or bottled up in a commitee (that’s the Republican way). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/53 "2006-01-13T02:48:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Not true. So called Democrats were screaming about how Democratic referendum was a complete waste of money. In hindsight, were they wrong? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/54 "2006-01-13T03:42:36Z")
I think true Democracy means that the most stupid initiative deserves to be voted upon by the People. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/55 "2006-01-13T15:09:50Z")
“True” democracy as defined by you, you mean. Interesting that such a principle has never been part either of American democracy or modern western democracy in general. The California initiative process is a political and administrative nightmare and more than anything else it’s an opportunity for hucksters to confuse voters with numerous often incompatible poorly or misleadingly worded propositions. Have you ever tried to read a California ballot? To vote responsibly would take hours of reading and a further several hundred hours of instruction and analysis. It’s also a way for elected officials to escape accountability. Using Democrats’ opposition to the initiative process, especially as it was used by Schwarzenegger to insinuate that they are opposed to democratic principles is intellectually dishonest and it’s demagoguery, nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/56 "2006-01-13T16:14:13Z")
For generally accepted definition of True or Direct Democracy, [please see here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy). Strictly speaking, “_American democracy or modern western democracy in general_” are not really, er, Democratic. ---
**Author:** ![TommyTutone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c4cdca/32.png) [@TommyTutone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyTutone)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/57 "2006-01-13T16:52:10Z")
Hardly scientific evidence, but from my trip to Ukraine last year, during the standoff over the elections, my understanding is that the younger people are very much in favor of democracy and enjoy the ‘western’ style of living. It is the elderly, who have had their pensions shrivel up and/or disappear, that longed for the days of the security of communism. Bread lines were no fun, but the elderly could at least afford bread back then. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/58 "2006-01-13T17:07:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > For generally accepted definition of True or Direct Democracy, [please see here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy). > > Strictly speaking, “_American democracy or modern western democracy in general_” are not really, er, Democratic. Nitpick: When you use the word “democratic” to refer to anything other than the candidates, leaders or policies of the Democratic Party, you should spell it with a lower-case “d.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881/59 "2006-01-13T19:36:44Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > For generally accepted definition of True or Direct Democracy, [please see here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy). > > Strictly speaking, “_American democracy or modern western democracy in general_” are not really, er, Democratic. Ah, so when we’re talking about at least three different uses of the word “democratic,” one of them being a proper name, and one of them having to be qualified by the words “true” or “direct,” it seems that the Democratic party’s opposition to referenda might not really be a “funny thing” after all, then. In fact, in context, it might make complete sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-the-russians-already-lost-interest-in-democracy/337881.md?page=2)