# Have their been real cases of serial criminals "playing" with the cops? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781 "2006-11-17T03:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/1 "2006-11-17T03:07:11Z")
It’s a cop show cliche to have a brilliant psychopath lay out a series of cryptic clues in order to play with the police. After each murder a clue will be left for the police to agonize over, which leads them to a new location and unravels a peace of the killer’s psyche. Have their even been cases of this in real life? ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/2 "2006-11-17T03:10:46Z")
I don’t know right off hand about the “clues” idea. But, some killers do “play” with the police. [The BTK killer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Rader) (to use a recent example) sent letters to the police about his crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/3 "2006-11-17T03:13:17Z")
Actually, you know what **Carnick** — [Here’s](http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol9is2/guillen.html) a good link for you. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/4 "2006-11-17T03:26:05Z")
Ever heard of the _serial_ killer who was given the moniker [The Zodiac Killer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer)? What about the [Unabomber](http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists/unabomber/)? Those are just 2 examples. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/5 "2006-11-17T03:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=Zabali\_Clawbane] Ever heard of the _serial_ killer who was given the moniker [The Zodiac Killer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer)? What about the [Unabomber](http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists/unabomber/)? Those are just 2 examples. [/QUOTE] The Unabomber is a pretty good example but the authorities didn’t do a very good job of unravelling it. Even though his writings were carried in major papers, they didn’t make much progress at all. That is until his brother picked up the paper one day and started reading. “Hey, this crazy stuff sounds like stuff my brother Ted used to write. Hey, I haven’t seen him in a few years. I wonder what he is up to.” At least the authorities were able to find his Montana cabin given his info but that isn’t as impressive. The BTK killer was just like the fictional stories. The police tracked the floppy disk to a computer in a church and Dennis Rader was the president of the church council. That one makes an almost cliched and unbelievable story at least at the end. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/6 "2006-11-17T03:58:44Z")
Son of Sam wrote letters too. It isn’t an uncommon pattern for serial murderers. Zodiac is uncommon in not having gotten caught. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/7 "2006-11-17T05:49:51Z")
[QUOTE=yabob] Zodiac is uncommon in not having gotten caught. [/QUOTE] There were two Zodiac killers, one in New York who was eventually caught, and one in California, who remains unidentified. So, you’re half right. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/8 "2006-11-17T15:58:45Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] There were two Zodiac killers, one in New York who was eventually caught, and one in California, who remains unidentified. So, you’re half right. [/QUOTE] Well … the New York copycat really isn’t who springs to mind when you say “Zodiac Killer”. Unless they are explicitly pluralizing it to “killers”, it’s a pretty safe bet that someone means the CA case. But, yeah, they caught the copycat. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/9 "2006-11-17T16:08:40Z")
Aren’t the [Jack the Ripper letters](http://www.casebook.org/ripper_letters/) the first example of this? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/10 "2006-11-17T16:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Aren’t the [Jack the Ripper letters](http://www.casebook.org/ripper_letters/) the first example of this? [/QUOTE] Possibly. But there’s controversy as to whether any of the letters are genuine. From the first paragraph of that page: > [@](#): > > … Many Ripperologists believe them all to be hoaxes. Other experts believe some (specifically the Dear Boss letter, Saucy Jacky postcard, and From Hell letter) are genuine. … ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/11 "2006-11-17T16:40:37Z")
[QUOTE=yabob] Well … the New York copycat really isn’t who springs to mind when you say “Zodiac Killer”. [/QUOTE] It is for me, but then I’m originally _from_ the NYC area at around the time of the murders. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/12 "2006-11-17T18:08:45Z")
Isn’t doing so a fairly standard trait of serial killers? I recall reading a book some years ago about how the FBI developed their psychological profiling unit (I’m almost certain it was [this](http://www.amazon.com/Mindhunter-Inside-Elite-Serial-Crime/dp/0671528904/sr=8-1/qid=1163786558/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0045212-8983045?ie=UTF8&s=books)), and one of the topics the author continually hit on was how a common motive is simply for the feeling of power: over the victim, over the media as they sensationalize the story, and over the police as they find your little clues/hints/etc, but not you. Very interesting book, IMO, and well worth a look if you’re interested in serial killers/criminal profiling. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/13 "2006-11-17T18:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=Carnick] It’s a cop show cliche to have a brilliant psychopath lay out a series of cryptic clues in order to play with the police. \ [/QUOTE] I’m not sure if the Manson family murders fit this scenario, but they did leave messages written in blood on the walls and other clues that eventually led to their convictions and also linked some of their murders. > [@](#): > > [there was writing which appeared to be in the victims’ blood: on the living room wall, “DEATH TO PIGS;” on another wall in the living room, the single word “RISE;” and in the refrigerator door, “HEALTHER SKELTER,” misspelled.](http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/manson/2.html) ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/14 "2006-11-17T19:32:30Z")
Well that’s four or five out of thousands, so I would say it happens, but is not SOP for the average serial killer. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/15 "2006-11-17T20:00:43Z")
And there’s some selection bias here. The serial killers that leave clues, contact the media, and taunt the cops tend to be caught more often than those that stay in the shadows. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/16 "2006-11-17T22:34:42Z")
I asked this question a while ago, and got approximately the same answer. One movie/TV additional detail is the killer who taunts a particular copy **by name**. Not sure if that’s ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/17 "2006-11-18T02:18:20Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] One movie/TV additional detail is the killer who taunts a particular copy **by name**. Not sure if that’s ever happened. [/QUOTE] This doesn’t quite fit the bill, but A lead investigator in the England’s Yorkshire Ripper case was sent a cassette tape purportedly recorded by the killer, in which he taunted the police about how dumb they were (and the detective in particular). The police spent a lot of time trying to trace the tape, giving excerpts to the media to air etc. It finally turned out to have been recorded by a retired police officer with a grudge against the detective. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2006, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-their-been-real-cases-of-serial-criminals-playing-with-the-cops/380781/18 "2006-11-18T02:30:41Z")
How about escaped or released convicts sending cops postcards from tropical resorts: “Weather’s here. Wish you were lovely.” Ok, ok I heard it on _The Bill_, but I’d be surprised if some wiseacre crim hadn’t done it in real life.