# Have they no sense of decency? (Criticising Bush for Katarina)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 31, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423 "2005-08-31T14:25:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/41 "2005-08-31T18:48:45Z")
Well, thats certainly something real you can bash Bush on then jshore…agree completely.
-XT
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### Author:  [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/42 "2005-08-31T18:50:03Z")
Bush, Clinton, Bush I, Regan, Carter… almost anyone who has served in congress
All these people are to blame. I won’t blame Bush anymore, or less then i will blame Clinton, he didn’t anything about it either. All of them with their hands out for money.
since this has not somehow made it to the pit yet i will stop there.
If storm intensity and frequency is due global warming (I’ve never seen evidence against it) we are all to blame. It’s not like im riding a bike to go get my organic fruits, or have hooked up solar panels to supply me with power.
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### Author:  [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/43 "2005-08-31T18:56:25Z")
> [@newcrasher](#):
>
> RFK, Jr.s commentsdate 8/29/05
>
> [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/afor-they-that-sow-the-\_b\_6396.html](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/afor-they-that-sow-the-_b_6396.html)
Thanks, newscrasher. I had clicked on the link in the OP, but didn’t follow it in turn to the HuffingtonPost.
Perhaps the OP’er didn’t either…
- As Hurricane Katrina dismantles Mississippi’s Gulf Coast, it’s worth recalling the central role that Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour played in derailing the Kyoto Protocol and kiboshing President Bush’s iron-clad campaign promise to regulate CO2. \*
It looks to me as though Kennedy is leading off by stating that Bush backed off of promised increased environmental regulations as a direct result of pressure from a politician in a region now hit by the hurricane. I would say that the main criticism is heaped on the Governor, and only later on Bush as a result of caving to political pressure.
However, yes it does sound like politicizing and, yes it is insensitive at this time. In defense of his principles (though not his tact): I’ve heard Kennedy speak and it is clear from everything he says that it is the environment that is closest to his heart. If it sounds like a condemnation of Bush or Republicans, it is only because they tend to favor industry over the environment, and have rolled back many of the environmental regulations that have been passed, and refusing to enforce those that have been passed.
Just to address some points made in earlier posts: Even if global warming is a result of the last 100 years of US industrialization (since 1905? Cmon, I’d say since after WWII), that doesn’t excuse any administration from blaming the past and walking away (as the US did at Kyoto). One doesn’t reverse a trend by perpetuating it.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/44 "2005-08-31T19:07:16Z")
> [@Plynck](#):
>
> Just to address some points made in earlier posts: Even if global warming is a result of the last 100 years of US industrialization (since 1905? Cmon, I’d say since after WWII), \*\*that doesn’t excuse any administration from blaming the past and walking away \*\*(as the US did at Kyoto). One doesn’t reverse a trend by perpetuating it.
True, but nor does it give the right to someone to blam the guy in charge for a problem that can be said to have begun with the industrial revolution. Once those smokestacks started billowing the gasses in the air, the problem existed. My point was that a quick four years is not going to reverse many years of doing nothing but contributing to the problem.
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/45 "2005-08-31T19:16:01Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> True, but nor does it give the right to someone to blam the guy in charge for a problem that can be said to have begun with the industrial revolution. Once those smokestacks started billowing the gasses in the air, the problem existed. My point was that a quick four years is not going to reverse many years of doing nothing but contributing to the problem.
You’re right. Don’t bother blaming Bush. But for chrissakes, will people realize there’s a problem???
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### Author:  [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/46 "2005-08-31T19:24:52Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> True, but nor does it give the right to someone to blam the guy in charge for a problem that can be said to have begun with the industrial revolution. Once those smokestacks started billowing the gasses in the air, the problem existed. My point was that a quick four years is not going to reverse many years of doing nothing but contributing to the problem.
True - in the sense that one can’t blame Bush (or anyone for that matter) for the industrialization that has been taking place for decades.
False - in the sense that continuing to do nothing is bad enough. In Bush’s case, I believe that conditions have worsened. The link I posted above to Kennedy’s speech to the National Press Club itemizes the transgressions of this administration.
While we’re on the subject of politicizing Katrina, prepare yourself for [a much bigger one](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30539163.htm): This is the time when the President ordinarily dispatches the National Guard to aid in a national disaster. With the Guard stretched thin with many of them in Iraq, this is going to hamper the efforts to provide aid, reconstruct infrastructure, deter looters, etc. Much will be made of the troops being abroad in a questionable war when they are desperately needed here.
And then expect politicizing over the cost of reconstruction on top of the cost of the Iraq War, and the rising cost of oil.
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### Author:  [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/47 "2005-08-31T19:42:52Z")
Isn’t the national guard supposed to be here for national emergencies, not random invasions? Oh, I accidentally criticized Bush again. None of his actions have consequences. We can plunge the country in debt and strap our resources, but there are no consequences and to suggest otherwise is indecent and amoral.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/48 "2005-08-31T19:45:25Z")
> [@cricetus](#):
>
> You’re right. Don’t bother blaming Bush. But for chrissakes, will people realize there’s a problem???
Nope, not everyone. If there is the slightest dissention within the scientific community, which there is regarding global warming, there will always be those who for whatever reason refuse to admit that there is a problem. They will tell you that weather is cyclical, like 1,000 of years in a cycle. Further, it is shortsighted to make predictions of future weather calamities based on a relatively small number of human years in which meteorology has been studied. That argument has some merit by the way.
The hardest concept to sell is the whole global warming causing cooler than average temperatures. The average Joe wont see the correlation between the two and dismiss the entire effort as “junk science”. Movies like _The Day After Tomorrow_ don’t help either.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/49 "2005-08-31T19:48:40Z")
> [@cricetus](#):
>
> Isn’t the national guard supposed to be here for national emergencies, not random invasions? Oh, I accidentally criticized Bush again. None of his actions have consequences. We can plunge the country in debt and strap our resources, but there are no consequences and to suggest otherwise is indecent and amoral.
Not necessarily. The National Guard has faught in plenty of overseas conflicts besides this one. Did you actually read the article by the way? It was repeated several times by several different sources that Guard levels are adequate for the job at hand in the states currently affected by the storm.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/50 "2005-08-31T19:50:02Z")
And what consequences should Bush face? Poor planning is not a trait unique to this administration.
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### Author:  [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/51 "2005-08-31T19:56:16Z")
> [@yo no se](#):
>
> My POV: (1) it is extremely indecent for RFK Jr. and his ilk to politicize this event;
Well, Bush has politicized the event by making a big deal about cutting his vacation “short” to address the disaster. Here’s [Salon](http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/)’s take:
> [@](#):
>
> So Bush heads back to Washington today – and soon, to the scene of the disaster in Louisiana – but for what? What can Bush do for the people of New Orleans that isn’t being done already? What can he do that he couldn’t do in Crawford? Scott McClellan didn’t have much of an answer yesterday. Throughout the president’s vacation – as American soldiers were killed and the political progress faltered in Iraq – the White House insisted that Bush had all the powers of the modern presidency in his command down in Crawford. So why does Bush have to go back to Washington now? Isn’t it just symbolic, like standing on that fire truck and shouting in a bullhorn after 9/11?
>
> “No, I think – no, I disagree,” McClellan said yesterday. “Like I said, this is one of the most devastating storms in our nation’s history, and the president, after receiving a further update this morning, made the decision that he wanted to get back to D.C. and oversee the response efforts from there.” Pressed on what Bush could do in Washington that he couldn’t do in Crawford, McClellan said: “We’ll talk to you all later. We’ve got to go. Thank you.”
Sounds like he’s using the tragedy as an opportunity to burnish his image a little…
> [@](#):
>
> (2) to do it at this point in time is unforgiveable;
Wow, I’m glad to know that criticizing the President can, in the right context, actually be _unforgivable_! Will you let us know when those situations are in the future? :rolleyes:
> [@](#):
>
> and (3) it is morally and ethically wrong to place the blame of a natural disaster of this (or any) magnitude on an individual whether in the Press or in a Courtroom unless there is sufficient evidence to prove guilt.
OK, fine. Do you mind if we lay the blame for the shortage of National Guard troops squarely at his feet, then? It is his war that’s responsible for fewer NG stateside, not to mention lower recruitment numbers and an already exhausted supply of soldiers who, after multiple tours abroad, have to face this disaster with diminished numbers. There isn’t morally and ethically wrong to blame him for that, is there?
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/52 "2005-08-31T20:01:42Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#):
>
> Do you mind if we lay the blame for the shortage of National Guard troops squarely at his feet, then? It is his war that’s responsible for fewer NG stateside, not to mention lower recruitment numbers and an already exhausted supply of soldiers who, after multiple tours abroad, have to face this disaster with diminished numbers. There isn’t morally and ethically wrong to blame him for that, is there?
I’ll ask you, did you read the article? Several officials said that the Guard levels were adequate for the task at hand.
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### Author:  [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/53 "2005-08-31T20:04:13Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> I’ll ask you, did you read the article?
Did you?
> [@](#):
>
> But a story in this morning’s Washington Post begins to cast a little doubt on those assurances. While the Pentagon puts on a good show, the Post says that National Guard officials in the damaged states have “acknowledged that the scale of the destruction is stretching the limits of available manpower while placing another extraordinary demand on their troops – most of whom have already served tours in Iraq or Afghanistan or in homeland defense missions since 2001.”
>
> “Missing the personnel is the big thing in this particular event,” Mississippi National Guard Lt. Andy Thaggard tells the Post. “We need our people.” The Post says about 40 percent of Mississippi’s Guard contingent is either in Iraq or getting ready to go there. The rest is being deployed for hurricane work now, and it’s not going to be enough: Mississippi has requested troops and aircraft from about eight other states, the Post says, and other states hit by Katrina are also calling out for help.
>
> The Pentagon has promised governors that they’ll always have at least 50 percent of their Guard contingents at home, and so far it’s making good on the vow. One catch: With National Guard enlistment down in many states, 50 percent of a state’s contingent isn’t always what it used to be.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/54 "2005-08-31T20:06:56Z")
[From the previous cite:](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30539163.htm)
\*The Pentagon has sent about 40 percent of Mississippi’s National Guard force to Iraq and 35 percent of Louisiana’s – a combined total of about 6,000 troops. **But officials maintained this had not hurt the relief effort in those states, hardest hit by the hurricane.** ~bolding mine
The Pentagon has promised never to deploy more than half of a state’s guard force at any given time.
“None of the states impacted are stretched thin at all,” said Jack Harrison, a National Guard Bureau spokesman at the Pentagon, noting there are about 31,500 guardsmen either activated or available to be activated in the four states.\*
Just for clarification
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/55 "2005-08-31T20:10:27Z")
Obviosuly a different point of view from those behind a desk and those on the ground. I humbly retract my previous statement.
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/56 "2005-08-31T20:14:10Z")
> [@Plynck](#):
>
> It looks to me as though Kennedy is leading off by stating that Bush backed off of promised increased environmental regulations as a direct result of pressure from a politician in a region now hit by the hurricane. I would say that the main criticism is heaped on the Governor, and only later on Bush as a result of caving to political pressure.
Caving in to political pressure? Haley Barbour was the Chairman of the Republican Party for six years. He was Reagan’s Director of White House Office of Political Affairs. He’s served as the chair and CEO of the country’s top lobbying firm.
Haley Barbour **IS** political pressure.
-Joe
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### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/57 "2005-08-31T20:54:57Z")
> [@JXJohns](#):
>
> Obviosuly a different point of view from those behind a desk and those on the ground. I humbly retract my previous statement.
Right…The difference is also between the Pentagon Party Line and what the people who are freer to speak the truth can say.
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### Author:  [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)
#### Post date: [August 31, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/58 "2005-08-31T22:03:48Z")
And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/59 "2005-09-01T02:55:31Z")
So let’s see…
1. There’s no evidence at all that global warming contributed to this storm in any way.
2. Had Bush pushed for Kyoto, it would have been overwhelmingly rejected in the senate.
3. Had he managed somehow to get it passed into law, it would have had absolutely no effect on global temperatures by this time.
Other than that, it’s all Bush’s fault. :rolleyes:
As for making general points about global warming, the time to do that is not while there are still bodies floating in the flooded streets of a destroyed city.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/60 "2005-09-01T03:17:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> As for making general points about global warming, the time to do that is not while there are still bodies floating in the flooded streets of a destroyed city.
Alternatively, this is the best time to do it, when people will make the association between global warming and dead bodies and destroyed cities. That sort of association is good to have lodged in people’s memories when you want to bring up the topic, later–sort of like making false links between Iraq and terrorism if you want to launch an invasion: get the idea into the heads of the people so that you don’t have to start over when you try to build your case.
Now, regardless whether science eventually provides a link between global warming and destructive hurricanes, if it is your belief the the link exists, this is the time to reinforce that belief among the rest of the public.
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