# Have they no sense of decency? (Criticising Bush for Katarina)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 31, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423 "2005-08-31T14:25:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/101 "2005-09-02T12:25:11Z")
[www.wwltv.com](http://www.wwltv.com) right now has a Parish official telling us that they planned for this disaster and the feds did not live up to their part in the plan and even ordered them to abandon the resue efforts they were making, that according to play they were supposed to make using boats they had for that purpose.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/102 "2005-09-02T13:34:51Z")
> [@Apos](#):
>
> Red herring. In both cases, the issue is that planes flown into buildings and levees breaking was something that was, in fact, discussed, and in the case of the levees, discussed pretty extensively not only when Katrina was still on the way, but for years.
Same question applies. What disasters and/or terrorist attackes are we discussing now, have been for years, and are going to happen shortly? Again, please be specific.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/103 "2005-09-02T13:49:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Same question applies. What disasters and/or terrorist attackes are we discussing now, have been for years, and are going to happen shortly? Again, please be specific.
The Bush plan: Prepare for nothing, hope for the best.
Go Team Bush!
-Joe
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### Author:  [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/104 "2005-09-02T14:16:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> … and all of a sudden _today_ the FEMA head said on television that he just found out about it and ordered help to go there now…
As much as I agree that the government’s (Federal, State and Local) response to this has been too little and too late, can you provide a cite for this? If FEMA is stating that they only found out about Katrina’s devastation days after the event instead of anticipating it days before, then they truly deserve to be pilloried.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/105 "2005-09-02T14:31:45Z")
I appreciate the request for a cite, but that is how I remember the conversation he had with a reporter. I don’t even remember what network it was since I watched CBS evening news and then right after that the special edition of NBC news. I’ll try to track it down.
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### Author:  [@Kakofonous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kakofonous)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/106 "2005-09-02T14:54:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> I appreciate the request for a cite, but that is how I remember the conversation he had with a reporter. I don’t even remember what network it was since I watched CBS evening news and then right after that the special edition of NBC news. I’ll try to track it down.
While you might have seen a different interview - this sounds exactly what was said about the situation at the convention center. There was a CNN interview yesterday evening with the FEMA head in which he said that they were unaware of the large number of people at the convention center and that help was sent as soon as he heard about it (and that he heard about it from the news). There were many pronouns involved and it would’ve been very easy to miss the specifics of what he was talking about.
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### Author:  [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/107 "2005-09-02T15:08:45Z")
A quote from the mayor of New Orleans.
> [@](#):
>
> I am goddamned pissed. What the hell is that man in Washington doing? The only damned thing that man in the White House has done in this whole crisis is sending one great general down here who told people to get their damned asses in gear and stop screwing around. This is goddamned crazy. I got thousands of people down here who are starving and these jerks in Washington are sitting in their damned air conditioned offices and saying look at those poor black people, screw em. The (BLEEP) from FEMA is about as useful as fleas on a dog. That man needs to go work somewhere else. Homeland Security should be called White Homeland Security because they don’t care about our people."
>
> “Where the hell is FEMA. Where the hell are the busses? Every goddamned Greyhound bus in the country should be driving to New Orleans. And this (BLEEP) Hastert should just shut his mouth. Who the hell is this jerk to sit on his ass and tell the people of New Orleans that … well, why should we rebuild New Orleans. If his lily white country club friends were in peril, you’d bet your ass they’d have their butts in gear. But no. These jerks are doing TV interviews and spinning and mugging for the cameras. Bush goes on TV, like he cares about us poor folk down here, and says he’s doing all he can. Like accepting some guitar from some country singer while our people are drowning. I’m surprised he quit his brush clearing.”
>
> “I’ll tell you what. If it wasn’t for CNN and the other media, we’d all be dead. There are more reporters down here than FEMA. I’d give that Jeanne Meserve woman a damn medal because she’s done more for our people than damned FEMA. We need the army. We need the generals. We don’t need more stupid politicians coming down here to make speeches. Don’t come here unless you got troops or help with you. We don’t want you here.”
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/108 "2005-09-02T15:11:17Z")
You’re probably right. What struck me is that why does the head of FEMA have to get his info from the news? It sounds like communications have broken down. The NO police certainly were aware of it, it just seems logical that information such as this would have been shared with the state police and FEMA. I think the news crews should get their information from the newsmakers, not the other way around.
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### Author:  [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/109 "2005-09-02T15:13:00Z")
The initial kneejerk criticism for Bush was unnecessary and uncalled for. However, the current situation, IMO, throws a whole lot of blame the administration’s way.
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### Author:  [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/110 "2005-09-02T15:14:55Z")
> [@](#):
>
> But Strock did acknowledge that more funding for the Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Project would allow the Corps to more quickly pump out the floodwaters inundating New Orleans.
>
> “Had we had the SELA project finished … we could more efficiently move the water out of the system because it’s a big drainage project,” Strock said.
>
> Other presidents also have taken aim at the Corps’ budget. President Carters’ first veto came against a big water projects bill passed by a Democratic-dominated Congress. And President Clinton squeezed the Corps budget as well. Doing so frees money for other White House priorities.
>
> “I fought every … administration when they tried to use the Corps of Engineers as a piggy bank to pay for other projects,” said former House Appropriations Committee Chairman Bob Livingston, a Louisiana Republican who represented the New Orleans suburbs for more than 20 years. “I had major battles with the Clinton administration.”
>
> “Going back to Carter. They’ve all sought to draw down the Corps of Engineers and put it elsewhere,” he said.
>
> Former Louisiana Sen. John Breaux, a Democrat, said it was clear during his time in Congress that flood control projects were shortchanged.
[Link](http://www.wjactv.com/money/4928424/detail.html)
Seems to me that they are saying that past Presidents used the Corps budget as expendible cuts. I think the blame is like peanut butter on bread, spread out. As for me, rather then blame Bush, or anyone else, I would rather try to fix it before something like this is able to happen again.
If it is Bush’s fault directly what are you going to do, not vote for him in 2008? I think the laws take care of that already. If it is Clinton’s fault, are we going to hold a special election with his name on the ballot so we can not elect him. Yeah that will show them.
If your an American and are you more concerned about laying blame on a politician on a natural disaster, before the people are even saved, I pity this country.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/111 "2005-09-02T15:14:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Same question applies. What disasters and/or terrorist attackes are we discussing now, have been for years, and are going to happen shortly? Again, please be specific.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Well, as I understand it, Bush’s own FEMA, in 2001, ranked the top the three likeliest, most catastrophic disasters as a terrorist attack on New York City, a hurricane in New Orleans and an earthquake in San Francisco.
Maybe Bush will hit the trifecta? ::smirk smirk::
How much of a roadmap do you and he need, **Shodan**?
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/112 "2005-09-02T15:19:12Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#):
>
> If your an American and are you more concerned about laying blame on a politician on a natural disaster, before the people are even saved, I pity this country.
Leaders lead. Their actions or inactions have consequences. Major changes are necessary, and I pity this country if we blindly lurch from disaster to disaster without understanding that.
I mentioned hurricane Andrew previously, and that is a perfect example. Bush I was blamed for part of the slow response, Clinton was elected, and he changed FEMA into an organization that did a lot of good to help mitigate the consequences of disasters, vastly improving, if not saving, peoples’ lives.
“Well, hmmm, what’re ya gonna do?” is not an appropriate response if you want leaders to actually do things.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/113 "2005-09-02T15:50:16Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#):
>
> How much of a roadmap do you and he need, **Shodan**?
A roadmap is exactly what I am asking for. A clear one.
You (and others) are implying that it was clearly obvious that Katrina and 9/11 were coming, when and where and how they did. Now I am asking for an equally clear “roadmap” on the next disaster.
If predicting 9/11 and Katrina was so painfully easy - after the fact - I am asking you to put your money where your mouth is and show that it is equally easy before the fact. So tell us all, what will be the next major disaster and/or terrorist attack? Predicting 9/11 was easy, since everybody knew that bin Laden was going to use airplanes as weapons, but Bush did nothing to prevent it. Predicting that Katrina was going to be the greatest natural disaster of the last twenty years was also clear and obvious, but Bush did nothing.
OK - prove that this is more than just politically biassed Monday morning quarterbacking. You are claiming that Bush should have known about both 9/11 and Katrina, and that the fact that he did not shows that he is incompetent.
Fine - show that a competent person can predict similar disasters. If Bush should not be President because he did not predict these disasters, then demonstrate that someone else is better qualified by predicting the next ones. That way we can tell that “incompetent” in this context means something more than “lacking prophetic powers”.
Again, be specific, as you are demanding that Bush should have been specific. Not this vague bullshit about “leaders lead”. Actual predictions, of a level of detail similar to the level you are demanding of the President.
It should be easy, if it is so obvious.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/114 "2005-09-02T15:59:47Z")
That’s a really, really beautiful strawman you have erected, **Shodan** , to protect your beloved President. Noone is saying that the specific dates and times of disasters can be predicted in advance. What is being said is that one can recognize the most obvious disasters waiting to happen and try to take actions to prevent the worst from materalizing or being ready to deal with the aftermath. And, according to others in this thread, FEMA had recognized both a terrorist attack in New York and a hurricane hitting New Orleans as two of the three most serious disasters waiting to happen.
Now, is that so hard to understand or is erecting strawmen such a habit now that it is impossible to stop?
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### Author:  [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/115 "2005-09-02T16:03:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Fine - show that a competent person can predict similar disasters.
A city in California will be destroyed by an earthquake. Will it be the next disaster? Who knows? Will it happen? Absolutely. Should we be prepared for it? Yes, absolutely.
Look, **Shodan** , it is not rocket science to identify natural disasters waiting to happen. There is no excuse for the govenmental departments charged with being prepared for them to be unprepared. I don’t know that I blame Bush personally, but I certainly blame the head of FEMA and of Homeland Security personally. If heads don’t roll after this debacle, I will blame Bush for that.
[Here](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html), by the way, is what your Peerless Leader had to say this morning:
> [@](#):
>
> Before leaving Washington, Bush told reporters that millions of tons of food and water were on the way to – but the results of the relief effort “are not acceptable.”
Not even he is falling back on the “we couldn’t predict it” defense.
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### Author:  [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/116 "2005-09-02T16:10:52Z")
> [@tracer](#):
>
> Three-Mile Island?
>
> I hate to burst your bunyon, but the Three-Mile Island nuclear emergency caused us to consume **more** greenhouse-gas-producing fossil fuel, not less.
>
> After Three-Mile Island, no new nuclear power plants were built in the United States. Oil, coal, and natural gas powered power plants were built instead. These fossil-fuel-powered plants increased our dependence on foreign petroleum and foreign natural gas, put more smog-producing pollutants into the air, and ultimately put more CO2 into the air, too.
>
> If anything, the “no nukes” crowd shares just as much of the blame for global warming as the people they despise.
I agree with **Evil Captor** that it is bizarre to blame Three Mile Island on the environmentalists. It seems like it was a major failure of the nuclear power industry and the NRC. (I guess your argument might be that the subsequent reaction to it, encouraged by the environmental movement, was way overblown. However, this is an argument that you haven’t actually made but instead want us to believe implicitly.)
Also, it is not clear to what extent that incident did in nuclear power; it may have been the last nail in the coffin…but it seems more likely that it was more a matter of economics, i.e., that nuclear power couldn’t compete with cheaper fossil fuels. And, while it is true that most of the environmental movement seems to oppose nuclear power, it is actually those who have fought for policies to keep fossil fuels artificially cheap and for not paying their environmental costs who may be more at fault for the stagnation of nuclear power in the U.S.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/117 "2005-09-02T16:12:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You (and others) are implying that it was clearly obvious that Katrina and 9/11 were coming, when and where and how they did. Now I am asking for an equally clear “roadmap” on the next disaster.
Silly strawman.
There is so much straw in this figure that if anyone within a hundred yards lights cigarette you are going to be sucked into the maelstrom of your own burning effigy.
The original statement to which you objected was
> [@Apos](#):
>
> “I don’t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees.” is a statement much like "“I don’t think anyone anticipated that terrorists would fly planes into buildings.” It’s either a lie, or demonstrates an unacceptable degree of ignorance from our leaders.
There is no statement that the administration knew of a specific attack planned on New York and Washington in September, 2001 and no claim that anyone knew that this storm would hit this city this year.
The fact that the levee situation in New Orleans _was perceived_ long before the current crisis and people who claim to have “not anticipated” _the problem_ are liars. In the same way, reports of al Qaida looking into ways to hijack planes and use them as weapons were reported to the U.S. intelligence communities over a year prior to the attack (most notoriously from the terrorist-owned laptop recovered in the Philipines).
You can whine that no one knew the date as long as you wish, but the claim that **Apos** made was only that the events _had_ been anticipated, even if people in authority failed to take action on that anticipated information.
Perhaps the WTC/Pentagon hijackers would have still succeeded even if we had been looking more closely for them, but their task was made easier because we were not looking for them.
Perhaps the levees would have failed even if the rebuilding effort had not been cancelled, but perhaps fewer would have failed.
And, in any event, we would have been making the effort to deflect or prevent the _clearly anticipated_ failure. (We know that it was anticipated because the matter was placed in the top three issues to be addressed before funding was cut.)
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/118 "2005-09-02T16:22:32Z")
> [@Plynck](#):
>
> As much as I agree that the government’s (Federal, State and Local) response to this has been too little and too late, can you provide a cite for this? If FEMA is stating that they only found out about Katrina’s devastation days after the event instead of anticipating it days before, then they truly deserve to be pilloried.
[Here’s a quote:](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/02/earlyshow/main813097.shtml)
> [@](#):
>
> We’re also diverting supplies to the convention center, which I learned about (Thursday)…
>
> “Are you slow to get information?” Storm said. “You said you just learned about the convention center. There’s 25,000 people there; reports of dead bodies, rapes, fights breaking out.”
>
> “Yes, I learned about that, the federal government learned about that (Thursday),” Brown said. “And that shows how difficult communications are in the situation where there was virtually no communications, except for our teams on the ground.”
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### Author:  [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/119 "2005-09-02T16:37:04Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> [Here’s a quote:](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/02/earlyshow/main813097.shtml)
Evidently there aren’t any national media outlets in Washington DC. They really ought to think about doing something about that.
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### Author:  [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-no-sense-of-decency-criticising-bush-for-katarina/319423/120 "2005-09-02T16:37:19Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#):
>
> Leaders lead. Their actions or inactions have consequences. Major changes are necessary, and I pity this country if we blindly lurch from disaster to disaster without understanding that.
>
> I mentioned hurricane Andrew previously, and that is a perfect example. Bush I was blamed for part of the slow response, Clinton was elected, and he changed FEMA into an organization that did a lot of good to help mitigate the consequences of disasters, vastly improving, if not saving, peoples’ lives.
>
> “Well, hmmm, what’re ya gonna do?” is not an appropriate response if you want leaders to actually do things.
Are you implying if Kerry or Gore where the President this would not of happened? Because if thats what your implying I think I need to invest in there new anti-hurricane machine I knew nothing about previously.
Was FEMA supposed to be aware that once tragedy struck the people would resort to anarchy thus blocking aid efforts?
If FEMA did what they _could_ of done to enforce order to get the aid in, they would be getting bashed even worse.
And yes if Kerry where president right now, some of the blind conservatives would be trying to find a way to blame him, just as the blind liberals are attacking Bush now. But that doesn’t make it right.
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