# Have they put Father Judge in for sainthood yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273 "2001-09-23T01:03:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/1 "2001-09-23T01:03:31Z")
As you have undoubtedly heard, Father Mychal Judge, the NYFD chaplain, was killed by falling debris as he gave last rights to a rescue worker. By all accounts a good and holy man, I was wondering if an effort to nominate him for sainthood has begun. Not that I necessarily think he deserves it, though he very well might, and I would NEVER suggest that the Vatican would EVER canonize someone for political reasons, but it might see this as an opportunity to start. And yes, the last part was slightly sarcastic, but I am asking this as a serious question. I always liked saints. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/2 "2001-09-23T01:34:52Z")
I think Saints have to perform a miracle. Unless the late Father did something I’m not aware of, I can’t see it happening. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/3 "2001-09-23T02:10:15Z")
According to the [Catholic Encyclopedia](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm) a martyr can be beatified even without evidence of miracles. The linked article is LONG. Search within in it for the phrase "Beatification of Martyrs " to get the full story. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/4 "2001-09-23T02:14:06Z")
The canonization process. [http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/process.asp](http://www.catholic-pages.com/saints/process.asp) 1. Have to wait 5 years after the person has died. 2. Bishop has to start the process. 3. Diocese investigates. Witnesses testify to virtues of candidate. If candidate passes the diocesan investigation, he gets to be called a “Servant of God”. 4. Referred to a committee. Committee reviews it. 5. Committee presents it to panel of nine theologians. 6. Panel votes on it. 7. Goes to cardinals. 8. Cardinals vote. 9. Goes to Pope. For beatification, one (1) miracle performed by the "Servant of God is required. For canonization, two (2) miracles are required. I doubt if anyone could make a case for Fr. Judge’s martyrdom. He didn’t die for the Faith, he just died. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/5 "2001-09-23T02:17:16Z")
FYI: Mother Teresa didn’t “die for the faith” either, and the pope shorted the 5-year term to get the ball rolling immediately. ---
**Author:** ![pesch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pesch/32/4925_2.png) [@pesch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pesch)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/6 "2001-09-23T02:18:23Z")
“shortened” I mean, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/7 "2001-09-23T02:52:44Z")
Mother Teresa is not being canonized as a martyr. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/8 "2001-09-23T03:31:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\*I doubt if anyone could make a case for Fr. Judge’s martyrdom. He didn’t die for the Faith, he just died. \*\* Ah, but in the Fabulous World of Sanctification all things are possible if it can serve a political or public relations end, like the obvious good press of pushing up Mother Theresa’s process. The fight against terrorism may need a martyr. Fr Judge could serve that purpose. A good Vatican lawyer could make a case if he worked at it. But I’m really more interested if the INFORMAL process had started. That five year period is generally full of people suggesting he would make a good candidate. I haven’t heard it about Fr Judge yet and I was wondering if any of you had. But feel free to keep playing the Devil’s Advocate. It’s so seldom the phrase gets to be used in its properish context these days. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/9 "2001-09-23T03:32:55Z")
And are we even saying he was a martyr? A good man doesn’t have to be martyred to be recognized. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/10 "2001-09-23T03:36:00Z")
(You know, if I could EDIT my own posts I wouldn’t have to keep tacking on more posts.) But dying a Good Death as he did can’t hurt. (Goodness, I’m sounding callous, aren’t I? I don’t mean to.) ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/11 "2001-09-23T04:27:56Z")
Yeah, but Mother Teresa was around for years and years and years, doing good deeds in the slums of Calcutta, bathing lepers’ sores and stuff like that. Not to denigrate the man’s achievements, but Fr. Judge was just a firehouse chaplain. But no, I haven’t heard anyone suggest even beatification. I don’t see the Vatican as being terribly interested in a martyr to be a figurehead in the fight against terrorism. Actually, as far as I can tell, they’ve preserved a tactful silence so far on the subject of Osama Bin Laden, the USS _Carl Vinson_, F-16s, etc. All I could find on [cnn.com](http://cnn.com) for “vatican World Trade” was this: [http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/attacks.sports.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/attacks.sports.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > The Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano, criticized UEFA for allowing eight Champions League games to be played Tuesday, saying: “As the whole world found itself exposed to the terrorist threat and as the American people plunged into mourning, it was decided – in an inopportune way, to say the least – to play the scheduled games.” The Pope’s visiting Kazahkstan, just down the street from Osama’s back yard, and he’s not saying nothing 'bout no terrorism, confining himself to commenting: > [@](#): > > “Conflicts must be resolved not by force but by peaceful negotiation and dialogue,” he said, in an address devoted to Kazakhstan’s history as a testing-ground for Soviet nuclear weapons. Tactful, very tactful. 🙂 [http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid\_1557000/1557683.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1557000/1557683.stm) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/12 "2001-09-23T04:43:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **Not to denigrate the man’s achievements, but Fr. Judge was just a firehouse chaplain.** An excellent point, and one I considered, myself. However, what got me asking this was that ATC spoke to the head of a bureau for supporting the families of fallen firefighters the other day. She is the widow of a NYFD captain who was killed a few years back and when she visited a firehouse that had lost a crew in the WTC and one of the men had told her that they had been praying to Captain Whatshisname to help them find their comrades. My first reaction was, “Old-time Irish-Italian Catholicism as I remember it!” (My Protestant cronies don’t understand it at all, seeing it as medieval superstition, and I don’t bother trying to explain because someone not raised in it isn’t going to get it.) My second reaction was the topic of this thread. I know these people and it’s how they think. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/13 "2001-09-23T05:51:51Z")
Well, if the firefighters are praying to him, then they’re already informally considering him a saint. Are you asking about the Vatican, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![carlotta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@carlotta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlotta)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-put-father-judge-in-for-sainthood-yet/83273/14 "2001-09-23T14:44:45Z")
Sainthood usually begins as a popular movement, eventually given the church’s seal of approval. Judge is on the path to official sainthood if people begin praying to him for intercession. Most of the miracles attributed to saints occur after their deaths. Example: Injured fireman with medically documented paralyzing spinal injury prays to Fr. Judge for healing. Fireman is healed, walks again, returns to fire fighting, rescues many. Miracle attributed to Fr. Judge. Shrines may pop up to Fr. Judge, another sign of the popular movement.