# Have they really rediscovered Damascus steelmaking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 22, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091 "2004-12-22T01:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/1 "2004-12-22T01:30:09Z")
[Angel Sword](http://www.angelsword.com/techno_wootz_steel.php) They claim to be able to make steel that matches the metallurgical properties of traditional Damascus steel, and they have some electron micrographs showing the structure. Does anyone with more knowledge of this subject know if these claims are valid? There’s a link to a PDF file of a report done by a professor of mechanical engineering,but it doesn’t include any samples of historical Damascus. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/2 "2004-12-22T01:55:03Z")
As valid as I think they can be. I read an article in Scientific American about the two who rediscovered the process, a metallurgist and a blacksmith/knifemaker. It went into quite a bit of detail about how the vanadium impurities in the Wootz cake ingots and the hand forging process gave damascus steel its properties so I’m fairly convinced. If I can find a link to the article I’ll post it. I think the most interesting part is that damascus steel is not laminated as was commonly thought. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/3 "2004-12-22T02:15:32Z")
This is not the Scientific American article, but it goes into even more detail [JOM: The Member Journal of The Minerals, Metals & Materials Society -The Key Role of Impurities in Ancient Damascus Steel Blades - J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch](http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html) > [@](#): > > Abstract > > The art of producing the famous 16-18th century Damascus steel blades found in many museums was lost long ago. Recently, however, research has established strong evidence supporting the theory that the distinct surface patterns on these blades result from a carbide-banding phenomenon produced by the microsegregation of minor amounts of carbide-forming elements present in the wootz ingots from which the blades were forged. Further, it is likely that wootz Damascus blades with damascene patterns may have been produced only from wootz ingots supplied from those regions of India having appropriate impurity-containing ore deposits. ---
**Author:** ![audiobottle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@audiobottle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audiobottle)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/4 "2004-12-22T03:02:00Z")
I just wanted to say that the videos of those guys cutting the tatami mats are pretty cool. I noticed the swords they used for those seem to have very long hilts so they can place their hands far apart. Is that for more blade control? ---
**Author:** ![Mirror\_Image\_egamI\_rorriM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Mirror\_Image\_egamI\_rorriM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirror_Image_egamI_rorriM)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/5 "2004-12-22T03:56:02Z")
Several years ago, I read an article about Damascus steel in an issue of _Muse_ magazine, which is a pretty intellectual magazine for kids. They showed how Damascus steel was made, and how the different patterns in the steel were formed. It was really cool, and presented in a really easy-to-understand way (it’d have to be, for a kids’ magazine), and I can’t find my copy of it. I’m so annoyed. In Neal Stephenson’s Braroque Trilogy, which is set in the 1600’s, there’s a Damascus steel sword that plays a pretty significant role in the story: Jack’s “Janissary” sword. In “The Confusion” (I think), Jack watches some metalworkers make wootz and forge it into swords. Pretty interesting, and an excellent series of books overall. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/6 "2004-12-22T03:56:51Z")
About every ten years, someone comes along and says that they’ve rediscovered Damascus steel, or how to make a modern violin sound like a Strad. [Another group claiming to have developed it for industrial purposes.](http://www.machinedesign.com/ASP/viewSelectedArticle.asp?strArticleId=57611&strSite=MDSite&catId=0) ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/7 "2004-12-22T04:06:23Z")
Why bother? It’s not like there hasn’t been any advances in metallurgy in the last several hundred years. There are countless modern high stregth low alloy steel products to choose from and numerous production techniques available now that the Damascus steel makers could never have imagined. Damascus steel was great for its day, but really didn’t have any competition to comapre it with. It’s like saying they don’t build cars like they used to. Well no they don’t, they actually can make them better now (when they want to that is 😉 ). Some people just like to remember the good old days as being perfect. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/8 "2004-12-22T05:54:39Z")
The “why” is mostly artistic. Some Damascus blades have a beautiful pattern as the different steels cross. Some collectors put value on the historical techniques. These same folks will pay more for a pocketknife with a knapped flint blade. There’s a supplier for every customer. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/9 "2004-12-22T17:14:55Z")
> [@Si Amigo](#): > > Why bother? It’s not like there hasn’t been any advances in metallurgy in the last several hundred years. Why bother making a cake from scratch, or doing home weaving or pottery? There is a satisfaction in being able to make a beautiful item. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/10 "2004-12-22T18:16:36Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > [Another group claiming to have developed it for industrial purposes.](http://www.machinedesign.com/ASP/viewSelectedArticle.asp?strArticleId=57611&strSite=MDSite&catId=0) IMO they’re misuing the term Damascus as far as forge welded laminated steels are concerned. Forge welded laminations are a perfectly valid way to make samurai swords and used to be fine for shotgun barrels but it isn’t the same process used to make Damascus blades. The powdered metal process may produce the physical propreties but leave it to the Scandinavians to suck all the soul out of something. There are metaphysical properties that come from a blacksmith’s muscle and hammer that cannot be reproduced by such cold processes. **Si Amigo** , this is an area where if you need an explanation you wouldn’t get it anyway. It’s why some people prefer a good mechanical watch movement to quartz even though the cheaper watch is more accurate. The mechanical watch is more tangible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2004, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-they-really-rediscovered-damascus-steelmaking/281091/11 "2004-12-22T18:41:48Z")
Certainly they have. I have a few damascus knives myself. The modern dudes have many damascus processes- some more historical than others.