# Have two mentally retarded people ever had children? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 18, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779 "2011-04-18T01:09:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/41 "2013-06-30T18:10:33Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > In the 2001 movie [Sam I am](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277027/), Sean Penn played an MR man who tries to raise a normal, even smart, daughter by himself. > . Beat me to it lol. Yes that is a lovely film, sensitively acted and well directed. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/42 "2013-06-30T18:19:46Z")
There was also that made-for-TV movie called “Profoundly Normal” starring Kirstie Alley and Delroy Lindo. Based on a true story. We even talked about on the Straight Dope: [Profoundly Normal-- Any body else see this movie? - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=162116). ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/43 "2013-06-30T20:35:56Z")
Does nothing to advance the OP, but on the subject of TV movies, there was also the the TV Movie [Riding the Bus with My Sister](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C7GEC5lzL0). Has nothing to do with having children, though. Unintentionally funny movie, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/44 "2013-07-03T10:18:16Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **AboutAsWeird** , “mentally retarded” has many degrees, ranging in maturity from “fully functioning adult” to “having been declared ‘legally incapable of vote, entering contracts or sexual consent’”. If there is something that needs to be treated on a case-by-case basis is something as delicate as this. Remember that not so long ago, those born deaf were considered retarded; I don’t think they should have been prevented from having kids. > > I do think it is a matter of “health care and social services” to a point, **clairobscur**. Countries with UHC assume, as a society, that their weaker members will cared for by society as a whole - not so the US. Countries with compulsory vaccinations view prevention as an integral part of having a healthy society - not so the US, where someone’s right to be an asshole trumps his neighbors’ right to know their children are protected by herd immunity. There’s a lot more behind and under “health care” than merely hospitals when you’re sick, a lot more behind “social services” than CPS, and the whole difference in societal support structure between Here and There stems from completely different views of what a human being _is_. Nava, true, it does need to be on a case by case basis…But even the fully functioning adult can have weird meltdown style misunderstandings and not be able to take care of themselves…I think this population needs to be treated with utmost care b/c after all…they do have a disorder that means that they are very likely to not be able to literally function or understand at an adult level.It’s like… can you imagine an 8 year old being a parent or making adult decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/45 "2013-07-03T10:24:02Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > …there was also the the TV Movie [Riding the Bus with My Sister](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C7GEC5lzL0). Has nothing to do with having children, though. Unintentionally funny movie, in my opinion. Lovely book, didn’t know about the movie. ---
**Author:** ![thomasedwin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@thomasedwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thomasedwin)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/46 "2016-02-08T05:15:50Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Stop right there, now. I still use the term “mentally retarded” in some cases because it does tend to help people picture what I’m talking about. > > [I do know that a preferred term is developmentally delayed or something like that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5012700&postcount=17) So calm down, folks. I definitely do not intend to offend. > > Now, I searched the Dope boards for this question and I don’t see this being asked before. > > 1. Can two mentally retarded people successfully reproduce? > > 2. If so, can the child be developmentally normal? Or is it likely to share the same disability? > > Thanks! I don’t see what the big deal is about saying Mentally retarded, They are what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/47 "2016-02-08T05:56:53Z")
I dont think a parent or anyone else can legally have someone sterilized without their permission. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/48 "2016-02-08T06:08:54Z")
> [@thomasedwin](#): > > I don’t see what the big deal is about saying Mentally retarded, They are what they are. People probably made analogous points when the new-fangled term “mentally retarded” was coined to replace terms like “idiot” and “feeble-minded”, which in turn had been coined to supersede “lunatic”. The current term is “intellectually disabled” or “learning disabled”; these, too, are likely to be replaced in time. As long as there are pejorative or judgmental attitudes to learning disability, _whatever_ term we adopted is inevitably going to acquire pejorative connotations, and will need replacement as part of the effort to challenge pejorative stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/49 "2016-02-08T06:12:42Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > I can’t find it now, but I remember a cover article of the New York Times Magazine, perhaps fifteen years ago, focusing on the non-retarded children of developmentally disabled parents. The point was as a consequence of mainstreaming and the encouragement of disabled people in general to live as normal lives as possible, many were now marrying and having children, some of whom were not developmentally disabled themselves. (These kids frequently had serious learning disabilities, IIRC.) It was hard as the kids grew older, and began to outpace their parents at a fairly young age. Mentally disabled couples have children all the time. Anyone who has worked with the public, and especially in health care like I have, can testify to that. Because most people with MR do not have it as the result of a known genetic disorder, they are usually fertile, and honestly, most of them are indistinguishable from the rest of us until you talk to them for a few minutes, because they look and act “normal”, whatever that is. My friend who used to be a foster care caseworker said that about half of her clients had some kind of mental disability, usually schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and/or mental retardation, and these were the children who usually had intrafamily placements. (The other half were from drug and alcohol use, as one could probably imagine.) Judge Judy has said many times that mentally challenged parents were her most heartbreaking cases - “Some of them don’t understand how the process works, but they have children anyway.” I’ll never forget the family who came into the grocery store where I worked; the older child was about 8 years old and he was already smarter than his mom. If the father was in the picture, I never met him. ☹ A former friend (long story) who has a sister who is MR said, “That woman should never have been allowed to get pregnant in the first place!” and I replied, “I agree, but we’re not in charge of making those decisions.” Yeah, I know this is a zombie thread. I still had to speak up. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/50 "2016-02-08T06:20:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > There was also that made-for-TV movie called “Profoundly Normal” starring Kirstie Alley and Delroy Lindo. Based on a true story. > > We even talked about on the Straight Dope: [Profoundly Normal-- Any body else see this movie? - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=162116). Debra and Ricardo! “60 Minutes” has done several stories about them over the years. I’d love to see a new one, even though Ed Bradley, who did the earlier episodes, has died. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/51 "2016-02-08T06:43:06Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont think a parent or anyone else can legally have someone sterilized without their permission. I’m pretty sure they can, although sometimes they need to get a court order first. In cases of extremely profound retardation, [they can do more than that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Treatment). ---
**Author:** ![Magicicada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c67d28/32.png) [@Magicicada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magicicada)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/52 "2016-02-08T06:53:53Z")
I realize that this thread had been born again a couple of times, and I’m not sure why I didn’t comment before. I do know of a situation, going back about 20 years, which involved a man who was mentally challenged and who had fathered children with at least three different (and also mentally challenged) women, each of whom he had met at a sheltered workshop. He and the women were all high functioning enough that they lived semi-independently, and the pattern was that he would move in with a woman and urge her to get pregnant. Once the baby was born, he would quickly become bored, break off the relationship with both the mother and the child, and move in with another woman. He would convince her that while he had abandoned his other child(ren), he would never, ever leave her or the baby they had together, because he truly loved her. And so on. It was particularly sad because one of the mothers had already had a baby due to statutory rape (because of her age/mental level) and she had trusted this man because he was also mentally challenged and therefore she believed he would not advantage of her. She was devastated when he left her and their newborn. One of the things that struck me about the situation was that many women who aren’t mentally challenged will fall for this; these women were particularly ill-prepared to deal with a player. Of course there was no way the man could pay any kind of child support for any of the children. I don’t think any of the children were mentally challenged, but all were considered to be high risk of falling behind in their development and were being given assistance. Some of the people involved were trying to get information on birth control out to the individuals at the workshop, but they were stymied by others who either believed birth control education = encouraging sex or who insisted the only answer was forced sterilization (which wasn’t going to happen, but their unreasonableness drowned out more reasonable arguments). Another issue was this man simply was determined to have children, even if he had ability to take care of them, or even any real interest in them. Again, not a mindset limited to someone who is mentally challenged. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/53 "2016-02-08T12:51:29Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont think a parent or anyone else can legally have someone sterilized without their permission. Of course they can if they have medical power of attorney which they will be granted if their offspring is severely mentally disabled. My good friends daughter is in her early 20s and has Down’s. She has the mental capacity of a four year old. Who do you think should make that decision? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/54 "2016-02-08T13:32:28Z")
One added complexity is that, as we see here, we’re in the habit of referring to people with MR as “the mind of a child” or “the level of an X year old,” but things are rarely that simple. It’s a useful shortcut when explaining to the produce manager why this 6 foot man is knocking over the apples, but it’s less helpful when deciding what and how much intervention or help someone needs, or if they should be allowed to retain custody of their children. Some (most) people with MR are high functioning in some areas of life, and less so in others. (Like all of us, only amplified.) So you may very well end up with a person who can hold down a job and pay rent and seems like they’d be an adequate parent, but is so stressed out by disruption in routine and loud noises that they harm a newborn because it’s crying at 2am. You can also have a person who can’t work, but is a wonderful warm, caring, nurturing parent who knows when to ask for help. Both may have the “mind of a 3 year old” in some ways, and the mind of a 30 year old in others. It’s an extremely complex issue that cannot ethically be settled by one-size-fits-all policy. And I’m afraid that our habit of referring to these people as children is a direct cause of why we’re so reluctant to let them have adult relationships. They’re not children. They are adults. They have sex drives, and Maslow hierarchy needs for companionship, friendship, and sexual relationships. I’m reluctantly in support of allowing a person’s medical guardian to elect for contraception on their behalf, particularly in those cases where any offspring would end up creating more responsibility for the medical guardian (who would often be the grandparent). I’m far less supportive of the attempts to prevent them from having relationships. (See related issue: Seniors in nursing homes gettin’ jiggy.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/55 "2016-02-08T13:53:06Z")
That’s nice. My friend’s daughter can barely communicate and still needs to wear a diaper. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/56 "2016-02-08T14:00:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont think a parent or anyone else can legally have someone sterilized without their permission. One of my older brothers was probably “on the spectrum” before schizophrenia\* hit. In his mid-twenties (sometime is the early 1970s) he was sterilized by the state of Iowa. He was/is not happy about that. But since the state did encourage him to shack up with women who had also been institutionalized as a way to get both to stay on their meds and live a “normal” life I guess it was a good thing. [https://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/eugenics/](https://www.uvm.edu/~lkaelber/eugenics/) \*He was about 18 when I started knowing him (as in remembering stuff we did together), he was slow in some things and a genius in others. Then he did some laced coke (angel dust is the family guess), was in a car accident that burned his upper body badly and the mix of drugs he had taken combined with the emergency pain meds pretty much fried his brains. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/57 "2016-02-08T14:11:45Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > That’s nice. My friend’s daughter can barely communicate and still needs to wear a diaper. Which is \*exactly \*why one-size-fits-all policy doesn’t work. And also, not to pick on you, why comparisons to age don’t work. Most four year olds can communicate and few need diapers. ---
**Author:** ![funky\_little\_lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@funky\_little\_lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/funky_little_lee)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/58 "2016-02-08T15:00:04Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dont think a parent or anyone else can legally have someone sterilized without their permission. It is possible–at least it was in the 70’s. Our next door neighbors’ daughter was severely developmentally disabled, to the point where she could never have coped with having her period, let alone parenthood. They had her get a hysterectomy. Of course she was so profoundly disabled she could not have given consent in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/59 "2016-02-08T23:35:30Z")
> [@funky\_little\_lee](#): > > It is possible–at least it was in the 70’s. Our next door neighbors’ daughter was severely developmentally disabled, to the point where she could never have coped with having her period, let alone parenthood. They had her get a hysterectomy. Of course she was so profoundly disabled she could not have given consent in any meaningful way. I can understand a hysterectomy for a severely disabled woman, because in addition to not having to worry about pregnancy, it also makes hygiene much easier. I’ve also seen evidence of chemical castration being given to men with severe mental disabilities, usually post-traumatic brain injury, because they have no impulse control and no way to teach them appropriate sexual outlets (i.e. they will masturbate in public). This is how chemical castration is done: OK, the female contraceptive dose of Depo-Provera is 150mg every 3 months. One reason most women who use Depo never take a second shot is because it commonly obliterates their sex drives. The dose for men is 400mg once a month. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779/60 "2016-02-08T23:38:01Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > I’m pretty sure they can, although sometimes they need to get a court order first. In cases of extremely profound retardation, [they can do more than that](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Treatment). I remember that story. A poster on another board who has a profoundly disabled son, due to meningitis, said, “Becoming a man is the only normal thing our son will ever have the opportunity to do, and we would not want to take that away from him. That said, we understand why they would do this.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-two-mentally-retarded-people-ever-had-children/578779.md?page=4)