# Have U.S. armed forces really preserved our freedoms? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068 "2018-05-29T16:31:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/61 "2018-05-31T00:13:07Z")
If I knew what our freedoms actually were, I’d be able to make a better guess. Nobody ever seems to agree on what they are, and how they are maintained. Mostly people assume that they are talking about the same things when they say “freedoms” but I have not found this to be the case at all. ---
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/62 "2018-05-31T10:13:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > All I’ve heard from anybody else is ‘how dare you question our knowledge?’ To me, this indicates you haven’t been listening. At least four rational replies have been made to your post and you seem to be ignoring or dismissing all of them. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/63 "2018-05-31T11:36:17Z")
The military is to protect the country. So far, doing a great job. The government is to protect freedom. They have not been doing as great. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/64 "2018-05-31T11:45:09Z")
I find the adulation of our military very troubling. It’s pretty much the only national institution that has the support and respect of the entire country. This is typical of third world countries which lack the resiliency to weather political upheaval. Those glurgy Facebook memes about how great the military is chip away at our democracy piece by piece. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/65 "2018-05-31T14:15:29Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think World War II was a definite threat to our freedom because Hitler would have never stopped, and the Japanese were a grave threat in the other hemisphere. Some say that Germany could have never defeated the United States, but they were perilously close to developing nuclear weapons before we did. Had they done so, that could have tipped the scales. Besides, if we had been truly unbeatable, wouldn’t that have been because of our military? I think that’s more an argument that the Soviet military preserved our freedoms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/66 "2018-05-31T18:01:45Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I think World War II was a definite threat to our freedom because Hitler would have never stopped, and the Japanese were a grave threat in the other hemisphere. Some say that Germany could have never defeated the United States, but they were perilously close to developing nuclear weapons before we did. Had they done so, that could have tipped the scales. Besides, if we had been truly unbeatable, wouldn’t that have been because of our military? Yes, I agree. Hitler and Tojo certainly would have at least imposed draconian peace terms on the USA, and muchly limited our freedoms, even if they never actually invaded. Anyway, having 90% of the world under control of aggressive Dictatorships would have impeded our freedom. And really we dont know that they wouldnt have invaded. Germany, having control of all Europe, the USSR, the Middle east, and North Africa, and Japan having all the rest of Asia? Are we\* so\* sure they wouldnt have invaded? Yes, WW2 was a definite threat to our freedom. Now, onto the Cold war. Do we really think that the USSR, holding the only other nuclear arsenal in the world would have made demands? They wouldnt have to "invade’ just dropped a bomb on us to show they were serious, and we’d be the Peoples Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/67 "2018-05-31T18:05:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Are we\* so\* sure they wouldnt have invaded? Yes, crossing the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to mount an invasion of America is all but impossible. Bear in mind that the invading force must significantly outnumber the defenders at the point of attack of an amphibious landing for it to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/68 "2018-05-31T18:08:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, crossing the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans to mount an invasion of America is all but impossible. Bear in mind that the invading force must significantly outnumber the defenders at the point of attack of an amphibious landing for it to succeed. Really? They couldnt come in from Canada or Mexico? Remember, we invaded Europe and many Japanese held islands and were about to invade Japan. The IJN couldnt island hop? They were already in Alaska. And- what defenders? Remember, the USA has \*no military. \* No doubt gun toting volunteers would make it tough on the occupying forces, but stopping tanks is really hard. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/69 "2018-05-31T18:28:51Z")
Where are the forces invading the United States supposed to come from? The Germans are presumably still trying to occupy most of Europe, the Soviet Union and North Africa in this hypothetical, while Japan occupies China and the rest of southeast Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/70 "2018-05-31T19:06:58Z")
The military doesn’t protect/fight for “freedom.” The military fights for and protects the geo-political interests of the government. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/71 "2018-05-31T19:19:05Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > The military doesn’t protect/fight for “freedom.” The military fights for and protects the geo-political interests of the government. This sums up my thinking as well. Here’s another typical quote that inspired this thread (article in Tuesday’s Wasgington Post): > [@](#): > > “We’re free because people gave their lives for us to live this way,” wrote the Air Force veteran and Maryland Army National Guard member. (Tragically, this was a Facebook post by a man who lost his life this week attempting to save someone from a flood.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/72 "2018-05-31T19:42:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Where are the forces invading the United States supposed to come from? The Germans are presumably still trying to occupy most of Europe, the Soviet Union and North Africa in this hypothetical, while Japan occupies China and the rest of southeast Asia. After they have occupied them for years or decades. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/73 "2018-06-01T20:00:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The presence of U.S. forces in Korea just makes the war even more winnable and even more quickly so. I’ve seen the US presence in South Korea referred to as a “trip wire” that’s more symbolic than strategic. If the North were to invade, it would cause immediate and monumental US casualties, triggering an immediate and monumental US response. Our 28,000 troops serve mostly as a promise/threat of overwhelming US response to any aggression against the South, ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/74 "2018-06-01T20:08:22Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > The military doesn’t protect/fight for “freedom.” The military fights for and protects the geo-political interests of the government. Sure, and our government was founded to “… secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity …” It’s not a complete contradiction to believe that fighting for the geo-political interests of the government is synonymous with fighting for our freedom. Now, I’m not saying that’s correct, accurate or even remotely true. But if you’re the Army’s PR guy, which would you lead with? ---
**Author:** ![Gullibility\_is\_Underated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Gullibility\_is\_Underated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gullibility_is_Underated)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/75 "2018-06-02T07:47:32Z")
[quote=“Jonathan\_Chance, post:40, topic:815068”] I like this point of view. I have run for office, am a stockbroker and a fair economist. People without similar backgrounds should just shut up and let me run things. Is this not the problem with the US? It seems to me that US citizens did shut up and let economists, bankers, politicians and stockbrokers run the country. This resulted in vast numbers of jobs being exported to other countries with the resulting benefit of cheap products but the disadvantage of a lot of highly skilled US artisans loosing the means of employment. In addition these skills are not continually passed on to the next generation. I am still using a US manufactured belt sander my father in law bought in the early sixties. New ones are just not built the same way resulting in a culture accepting mediocrity and a world economy reliant on disposable commodities, Yes some US entrepreneurs made huge profits but closed US factories as effectively, if not more so, than enemy bombers. When I was young we looked up to America and the great things they did for the world. New technology, seemingly selfless assistance to poor countries, great research made available at no cost to the citizens of the world etc. Consequently it appears to me that the US needs “civillian” oversight of the banks even more than over the military Remember, banking is necessary, banks not so much ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/76 "2018-06-02T08:28:00Z")
The Freedom of the United States has not been in any real danger since before the 1850’s. The “freedom” to be the world #1 superpower in political and military influence, has. In the last 150 years, the US military had achieved this: 1. Interfered, twice, in the war in Europe, thereby preventing the consolidation of a strong enemy. Note that in each case the military waited in safety until they had time to build up an overwhelming material advantage before entering the fray. 2. Interfered, continuously, in the middle east, so as to destabilize the region. Thus preventing the formation of a unified opponent there. 3. Arranged fake scuffles in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, to give the military something to do. They need a reason/excuse to maintain such a large and expensive force, after all. And the fighting is good for developing military skills, and military industries at home. 4. Fought a very expensive and essentially pointless over-the-fence fight with the soviets, eventually effectively winning by making the fight too expensive for the soviets thus bankrupting them. . So yes, the US military has done a fine job of being the US foreign policy’s bully-boy, establishing the US as the chief enforcer in the schoolyard. Have they defended the US’s freedom? Yes… But only if you include the right to be #1 as a freedom. Was the US ever in military danger from invasion? Not really, but having a very strong military was likely a big contributor in that. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/77 "2018-06-02T11:02:46Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > 1. Fought a very expensive and essentially pointless over-the-fence fight with the soviets, eventually effectively winning by making the fight too expensive for the soviets thus bankrupting them. You talking about the cold war? The cold war isn’t over it’s just that the nature of the game has changed. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/78 "2018-06-02T12:19:06Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > No, we don’t. > > \*\*Worse, the idea lets the rest of us off the hook, when in fact the civilian population has a real role to play in resisting corruption, bolstering institutions, and maintaining freedom as a cultural value. > \*\* > > I find the adulation of the military creepy, and that’s not in any way dismissive of the impressive skills and professionalism of many (most?) members of the military, or the occasional true heroism performed as a part of their job. But I don’t see how they are categorically different from other first responders (in terms of risk to life and limb) or teachers and civil servants (in terms of service to the country), and parts of their job (willingness to kill people when ordered by superiors to do so) disturb me greatly. Excellent post, word for word. I particularly agree with the text in bold. Freedom is a cultural value that has to be protected by everyone. If, over time, a democratic electorate begins showing apathy or contempt toward democratic norms and values, then the military won’t be able to save anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/79 "2018-06-02T17:19:11Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > 1. Arranged fake scuffles in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, to give the military something to do. So the United States “arranged” for North Korea to invade the South in 1950, North Vietnam to invade South Vietnam, and for al-Qaeda to carry out 9/11 from Taliban basing in Afghanistan? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068/80 "2018-06-02T17:33:35Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > The Freedom of the United States has not been in any real danger since before the 1850’s. > > Was the US ever in military danger from invasion? Not really, but having a very strong military was likely a big contributor in that. Again, if the Axis had won WW2, which they would have without our help, all of Europe much of Africa and all Asia would be under their rule. It would be only a matter of time before that rule spread to America. Once the Nazis drop a Atomic bomb on New York, we’d have to surrender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-u-s-armed-forces-really-preserved-our-freedoms/815068.md?page=5)