# Have US military personnel ever refused orders because they were illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056 "2020-02-17T03:27:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/1 "2020-02-17T03:27:23Z")
US soldiers are taught that they should refuse illegal orders. Do we have any examples of this happening in the last 120 years or so? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/2 "2020-02-17T03:38:57Z")
I don’t know if this is exactly what you’re looking for, but it’s one bright spot. > **[Hugh Thompson Jr.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.#My_Lai_massacre_intervention)** > > Hugh Clowers Thompson Jr. (April 15, 1943 – January 6, 2006) was a United States Army Major, and a former warrant officer in the 123rd Aviation Battalion of the 23rd Infantry Division. He is credited with ending the Mỹ Lai Massacre of the South Vietnamese village known as Sơn Mỹ on March 16, 1968, alongside and hierarchically above Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn. > During the massacre, Thompson and his Hiller OH-23 Raven crew, Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn, stopped a number of killing... ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/3 "2020-02-17T04:22:32Z")
The proper language is ‘refuse to obey a _lawful_ order’. This is how it is stated in the UCMJ (Article 90). We were always told that if we were ever unable to determine whether or not an order was lawful, we were to state our objections (hopefully in front of a witness), then carry out that order and report it to a superior officer. Disobeying an order can have some serious consequences, so a person needs to be damned sure he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/4 "2020-02-17T04:36:43Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The proper language is ‘refuse to obey a _lawful_ order’. This is how it is stated in the UCMJ (Article 90). No, that’s not quite the proper language. Here’s the full text of article 90: > [@The Uniform Code is Military Justice](#): > > Any person subject to this chapter who willfully disobeys a lawful command of that person’s superior commissioned officer shall be punished— > (1) if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct; and > (2) if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct. > (Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 68; Pub. L. 114–328, div. E, title LX, § 5409, Dec. 23, 2016, 130 Stat. 2942.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/5 "2020-02-17T04:42:15Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I don’t know if this is exactly what you’re looking for, but it’s one bright spot. > > [Hugh Thompson Jr. - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson_Jr.#My_Lai_massacre_intervention) I agree that it is a bright spot, but no, not what I’m looking for. Thank you tho; I had not previously known such detail of the actions of Major Thompson and his men. **Chefguy** , I know it to be a delicate situation; I’m curious if such a circumstance has ever happened in real life, tho. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/6 "2020-02-17T05:11:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I agree that it is a bright spot, but no, not what I’m looking for. I’m a little surprised. I believe Thompson was a warrant officer at the time of the My Lai massacre; he was told directly by Calley to fly away and drop his objections. To wit: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Calley: You better get back in that chopper and mind your own business. > > Thompson: You ain’t heard the last of this! Calley was a second lieutenant telling a warrant officer in no uncertain terms to ignore a war crime and go away. Thompson responded with a vague threat and proceeded to ignore those instructions. Is that not an example of refusing an unlawful order? It really might not be. I’ve never been in the military, so maybe second lieutenants don’t outrank warrant officers, or maybe Calley’s imperative doesn’t technically constitute an order. Am I mistaken about either of those things? If not, what _are_ you looking for, OP? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/7 "2020-02-17T05:43:35Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > I’m a little surprised. I believe Thompson was a warrant officer at the time of the My Lai massacre; he was told directly by Calley to fly away and drop his objections. To wit: > Calley was a second lieutenant telling a warrant officer in no uncertain terms to ignore a war crime and go away. Thompson responded with a vague threat and proceeded to ignore those instructions. Is that not an example of refusing an unlawful order? > > It really might not be. I’ve never been in the military, so maybe second lieutenants don’t outrank warrant officers, or maybe Calley’s imperative doesn’t technically constitute an order. > > Am I mistaken about either of those things? If not, what _are_ you looking for, OP? I do not know if you are mistaken. I have never served in the military and have only a passing idea of ranks: private, corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, uh, captain? then major? then colonel? then general? It’s been a long time since I watched MASH every afternoon. If that IS an example of someone refusing an illegal order, great; thanks to both of you and are there any others? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/8 "2020-02-17T06:48:59Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > It really might not be. I’ve never been in the military, so maybe second lieutenants don’t outrank warrant officers, or maybe Calley’s imperative doesn’t technically constitute an order. > > Am I mistaken about either of those things? If not, what _are_ you looking for, OP? A Second Lieutenant certainly does outrank a Warrant Officer. Also, the wording of Calley’s imperative to Thompson was definitely an order to Thompson. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/9 "2020-02-17T08:01:03Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > A Second Lieutenant certainly does outrank a Warrant Officer. Also, the wording of Calley’s imperative to Thompson was definitely an order to Thompson. Right on; thank you for the clarification. Okay, so we have one example. Any others? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/10 "2020-02-17T10:32:32Z")
I see “get back in chopper” and “mind your own business”. And then he did get back in his chopper, and (on a plausible understanding) he did mind his own business. Particularly since the officer doesn’t appear to be in his chain of command, once he got back in his helicopter and commenced minding his business (as defined by his chain of command), I don’t see any refusal of orders. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/11 "2020-02-17T11:46:23Z")
(Raises hand) I did, on at least a couple of occasions. All were minor, in the grand scale of things. 1. Twice ordered to ignore safety warnings in technical orders. 2. Once ordered to change the status of a piece of equipment from “In Work” to “Mission Capable”. The equipment in question was torn apart on a maintenance bench. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/12 "2020-02-17T13:49:57Z")
**Chefguy** , that’s not the same thing. On the one hand, as you point out, a servicemember is required to follow a lawful order. On the other hand, though, as the OP is asking about, a servicemember is also required to _not_ follow an unlawful order, such as an order to massacre civilians or to certify a piece of equipment as capable when it’s not. It seems to me, though, that there’s a third category, orders which an officer is not permitted to issue, but which a servicemember can freely choose to carry out or not. What’s the term for an order of that sort? ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/13 "2020-02-17T13:53:44Z")
I suspect OP is looking for dramatic examples of refusals to follow orders that violate the Law of War. In my personal experience, U.S. military personnel do refuse to follow unlawful orders, but they’re small, mundane situations which aren’t going to leave any sort of record to point to later. **Wolf333** ’s personal example is exactly the sort of situation that occurs. The “unlawful order” typically involves corner-cutting on maintenance and/or record-keeping, and is a violation of service regulations, not an international Law of War violation. I’ve personally disobeyed an unlawful order in a similar sort of low-stake situation. I was ordered to sign off on an inventory sight unseen. I refused to do so until I could personally put eyes on every piece of equipment on the inventory list. My Reserve unit’s supply cages were a mess, after a couple of hours of looking we couldn’t find several pieces of gear (which might have been genuinely missing or might have just been lost in the clutter), and my unit’s First Sergeant just kind of quietly took the inventory paperwork back and didn’t mention it again. I’ve been at one remove of a couple of instances very much like **Wolf333** ’s example, involving maintenance and documentation of such for vehicles in the motor pool. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/14 "2020-02-17T15:33:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Chefguy** , that’s not the same thing. On the one hand, as you point out, a servicemember is required to follow a lawful order. On the other hand, though, as the OP is asking about, a servicemember is also required to _not_ follow an unlawful order, such as an order to massacre civilians or to certify a piece of equipment as capable when it’s not. > > It seems to me, though, that there’s a third category, orders which an officer is not permitted to issue, but which a servicemember can freely choose to carry out or not. What’s the term for an order of that sort? In 23 years, I never saw any instance where a service member had an option to choose (at least not without facing consequences). I also never heard of an order that an officer or senior enlisted was not permitted to issue. The very nature of being a superior means that a person has the authority to issue orders to subordinates. Obeying the orders of a superior is a prime directive in the military in peacetime or in war, since in the extreme case of combat, failing to do so can get people killed. So even when nowhere near a combat zone, you are required to carry out lawful orders without question or debate. You are also required to question orders that are clearly unlawful, and even refuse to carry out same. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/15 "2020-02-17T15:41:04Z")
Yes, it does happened. I disobeyed an unlawful order while in the Navy. I was ordered by my LT JG to attend a religious service. I informed him it was an unlawful order and a violation of the Bill of Rights. Long story later and not that interesting, he got in trouble from the legal officer, not me. There were other cases to, not me, just while I was in and just in my division. These usually dealt with electrical safety issues though. ---
**Author:** ![turner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/22d042/32.png) [@turner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/turner)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/16 "2020-02-17T16:00:05Z")
Retired officer here. I want to make one thing clear. While following orders is the default, it is drilled into all military personnel that they need to obey LAWFUL orders. there used to be annual training in the laws of armed conflict that talked about treatment of prisoners and lawful orders. You don’t hear about a lot of people disobeying unlawful orders because for the most part, the military is filled with duty bound, patriotic people who want to do the right thing. In my opinion, where you see people doing bad things or obeying unlawful orders, its typically a case of esprit d corps gone awry. People getting too close during conflict and establishing loyalties greater than to their oath. Bad morale is bad, but morale that is too good isn’t that great either. All this being said, if you disobey an order, you better be sure you are right. or the house is going to fall down around you. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/17 "2020-02-17T16:52:26Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I suspect OP is looking for dramatic examples of refusals to follow orders that violate the Law of War. In my personal experience, U.S. military personnel do refuse to follow unlawful orders, but they’re small, mundane situations which aren’t going to leave any sort of record to point to later. > > **Wolf333** ’s personal example is exactly the sort of situation that occurs. The “unlawful order” typically involves corner-cutting on maintenance and/or record-keeping, and is a violation of service regulations, not an international Law of War violation. > > I’ve personally disobeyed an unlawful order in a similar sort of low-stake situation. I was ordered to sign off on an inventory sight unseen. I refused to do so until I could personally put eyes on every piece of equipment on the inventory list. My Reserve unit’s supply cages were a mess, after a couple of hours of looking we couldn’t find several pieces of gear (which might have been genuinely missing or might have just been lost in the clutter), and my unit’s First Sergeant just kind of quietly took the inventory paperwork back and didn’t mention it again. > > I’ve been at one remove of a couple of instances very much like **Wolf333** ’s example, involving maintenance and documentation of such for vehicles in the motor pool. That is correct. Things like that happen frequently. Often it is taken care of by going up the chain of command or even by the orderer reconsidering when hit with opposition. When not in wartime it’s pretty mundane and not very noteworthy. > [@Melbourne](#): > > I see “get back in chopper” and “mind your own business”. And then he did get back in his chopper, and (on a plausible understanding) he did mind his own business. > > Particularly since the officer doesn’t appear to be in his chain of command, once he got back in his helicopter and commenced minding his business (as defined by his chain of command), I don’t see any refusal of orders. Besides the inside army joke about warrant officers being outside anyone’s chain of command you are correct, he did not report to Calley. However the ground commanders (CPT Medina) had control and the air assets were attached to them for the mission. Most likely he did have command authority during the operation and not just general military authority. Thompson definitely did not go back to “minding his own business.” He continued to fly interfere with the operation including putting his helicopter between civilians and troops. Pretty much the opposite of minding his business. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/18 "2020-02-17T19:08:26Z")
And **What Exit?** conveniently provides an example of what I was asking about. It was unlawful for his lieutenant to order him to attend religious services. It would not, however, have been unlawful for **What Exit?** to choose on his own to attend religious services. So he was given an unlawful order, but was not obligated to disobey that unlawful order. That seems like a different category of order than ordering someone to do something that is itself unlawful. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/19 "2020-02-17T19:11:01Z")
OP is sorta asking for proof of a negative. In mundane situations as described, the exchange could very well go: Capt: Hey, do XYZ Grunt: Looks like XYZ would be an unlawful order, so no. [frank exchange of views wherein the order or the objection is clarified and the situation resolved] no record to provide to OP Alternatively, officers in the position to order something truly heinous, of which a record may exist somewhere, are not likely to be the sort to order something truly heinous, so the unlawful orders tend not to exist, and so cannot be disobeyed. That said, I’d be curious to know how many of the POTUS’s military staff have volleyed back some flavor of, “Yeah, we can’t do that, sir. It’d be a war crime.” But again, there is not likely a record of even that sort of exchange. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056/20 "2020-02-17T19:33:50Z")
As I understand it, members of modern first-world militaries are allowed to request that an order be put into writing and signed, for purposes of documenting potentially unlawful orders. Though serious violations are still probably pretty rare. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-us-military-personnel-ever-refused-orders-because-they-were-illegal/848056.md?page=2)