# Have we been sold out by Ms. Pelosi and the Democrats on the Iraq war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 7, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079 "2007-01-07T20:35:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/21 "2007-01-07T22:49:53Z")
So, the Dems are already failing to fulfill promises they did not make! What FIENDS!!! ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/22 "2007-01-07T22:52:05Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] If they refused to _continue_ funding it, maybe, but he wouldn’t start just because she said so. It’s clearly not something Congress is united on. I’d also like to hear from some other Dopers about what Bush’s options would be here. I would ask what other options she has. I don’t know why your first recourse is to ask if we’ve been “sold out.” [/QUOTE] “Sold out” comes from the fact that she wrote the President 8/1/06 to start wirhdrawing our soldiers from Iraq by the end of 2006. She is now saying that she will not even cut the current funding. If she does not cut funding, she and Congress will have nothing to do about our soldiers in Iraq, implied consent, except talk. That to me is a sell out that will cost more of our soldiers lives. ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/23 "2007-01-07T22:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] I wish I had your trust in Mr. Bush’s rationality concerning anything to do with Iraq… [/QUOTE] I don’t think Bush and his oil buddies even have enough money to fund the Iraq war for one week. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/24 "2007-01-07T22:56:25Z")
If Congress cut funding for the troops already over there, that would be essentially abandoning them. Withdrawing the troops is an entirely different matter. Look on the bright side: she and Reid have indicated in no uncertain terms that they’re not going to go along with a “surge”, and neither will many of their colleagues. Also, I don’t think that Campbell v. Clinton applies as much in this case as you do, and I also think that Congress can act without cutting existing funds. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/25 "2007-01-07T22:58:18Z")
[QUOTE=harveyc] “Sold out” comes from the fact that she wrote the President 8/1/06 to start wirhdrawing our soldiers from Iraq by the end of 2006. She is now saying that she will not even cut the current funding. If she does not cut funding, she and Congress will have nothing to do about our soldiers in Iraq, implied consent, except talk. That to me is a sell out that will cost more of our soldiers lives. [/QUOTE] Why don’t you just link to Dennis Kucinich’s talking points as they occur. At least he makes a more coherrent argument. Your processing them loses something in the translation. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/26 "2007-01-07T22:58:23Z")
[QUOTE=harveyc] I don’t think Bush and his oil buddies even have enough money to fund the Iraq war for one week. [/QUOTE] He still thinks we can win over there! And we already know how much he loves deficit spending. I don’t know if the man would even consider refusal of funding as anything other than proof that the Democrats hate the military and want troops to die. And you can bet that’s how the Administration’s mouthpieces in the media will spin it. ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/27 "2007-01-07T22:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] I understand that that’s how _you_ see it, but it sounds to me like she promised to call on the president to withdraw troops, not to cut funding for the troops already there. Those 2 things may be identical in _your_ mind, but I don’t think they are in _everyone’s_ mind. [/QUOTE] The President is not going to withdraw our soldiers if the war continues to be funded regardless of what she says. I think that is pretty clear. Even after the 2006 elections he is now calling for more soldiers in Iraq! ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/28 "2007-01-07T23:02:20Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Why don’t you just link to Dennis Kucinich’s talking points as they occur. At least he makes a more coherrent argument. Your processing them loses something in the translation. [/QUOTE] Where did Rep. Kucinich mention what she said today on “Face the Nation” about continued funding for the Iraq war? I must have missed it, link? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/29 "2007-01-07T23:06:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] John Murtha. Who Pelosi supported for House Majority Leader, and who took on something of a leadership role on Iraq on behalf of the Democrats for the last couple of years. [/QUOTE] He said he would do that, or he said that’s what he wants done? Those are two different things, **Sam**. It’s possible that a few Democrats here and there campaigned on a promise to bring the troops home, but mostly what I heard was they wanted a new direction-- the particular details of that “direction” to be worked out at a later date. **harveyc:** You quote from Pelosi in that letter only speaks of Democrats urging the President to bring the troops homes. He is the Commander in Chief and the Congress doesn’t have to power to direct the details of the war. I suppose it’s possible that Congress could vote to rescind the AUMF if they make it effective at some point in the future, but what if Bush decides to use his veto power? I don’t believe such a vote could pass with a veto-proof majority. No, we’re stuck with this AUMF, which is why Congress should never have voted for it in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/30 "2007-01-07T23:09:57Z")
**harvey c** , you’re not understanding the underlying problem here. Senator Biden, on Meet The Press this morning, laid that underlying problem out, which truly shocked me, since I’ve never seen this discussed by an actual respectable politician before: > [@](#): > > from this morning’s [Meet the Press](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16456248/page/3/) transcript: > SEN. BIDEN: You can’t do it. It’s—what—\*\*because it made sense in the Constitution when you said you could cut off funding when you had no standing army. We have a standing army with a budget of hundreds of billions of dollars. \*\* You can’t go in and, like a tinker toy, and play around and say, “You can’t spend the money on this piece and this piece and”—he—able—he’ll be able to keep those troops there forever constitutionally if he wants to. > > MR. RUSSERT: Why not have legislation then that would cap the number of troops in Iraq? > > SEN. BIDEN: Because it’s very difficult to—it’s constitutionally questionable whether or not you can do that. I think it is unconstitutional to say, “We’re going to tell you you can go, but we’re going to micromanage the war.” When we wrote the Constitution, the intention was to give the commander in chief the authority how to use the forces, when you authorize them, to be able to use the forces. As long as the President has, at his disposal, an instantly available standing army, you’re not going to be able to rein him in. Can’t be done. If you want a President to be accountable to the people and to the Congress for sending citizens off to die on useless, idiotic wars, you have to make sure he doesn’t have an army available for his fantasies of world domination in the first place. The folks who wrote the Constitution understood that. Very few American citizens understand that today, including, apparently, you. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/31 "2007-01-07T23:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=harveyc] The President is not going to withdraw our soldiers if the war continues to be funded regardless of what she says. I think that is pretty clear. Even after the 2006 elections he is now calling for more soldiers in Iraq! [/QUOTE] But your contention that _cutting funding_ = _president will immediately withdraw troops_ has been disputed. You are continuing to make this assertion without addressing any of the posts explaining why your assertion is incorrect. Let’s say that Pelosi _could_ cut funding for the troops currently in Iraq (even though it’s not clear if this is even politically possible). If Bush refuses to withdraw any troops, and even _one_ soldier dies as a result of the funding cut, who do you think will be blamed? ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/32 "2007-01-07T23:14:21Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] … I suppose it’s possible that Congress could vote to rescind the AUMF if they make it effective at some point in the future, but what if Bush decides to use his veto power? I don’t believe such a vote could pass with a veto-proof majority. No, we’re stuck with this AUMF, which is why Congress should never have voted for it in the first place. [/QUOTE] How does the President veto nothing, i.e. the Congress doesn’t act on future appropriations bills for the Iraq war? ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/33 "2007-01-07T23:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] **harvey c** , you’re not understanding the underlying problem here. Senator Biden, on Meet The Press this morning, laid that underlying problem out, which truly shocked me, since I’ve never seen this discussed by an actual respectable politician before: As long as the President has, at his disposal, an instantly available standing army, you’re not going to be able to rein him in. Can’t be done. If you want a President to be accountable to the people and to the Congress for sending citizens off to die on useless, idiotic wars, you have to make sure he doesn’t have an army available for his fantasies of world domination in the first place. The folks who wrote the Constitution understood that. Very few American citizens understand that today, including, apparently, you. [/QUOTE] Aren’t the appropriation bills for funding the Iraq war seperate from the DoD budget for the “standing army?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/34 "2007-01-07T23:19:20Z")
[QUOTE=harveyc] How does the President veto nothing, i.e. the Congress doesn’t act on future appropriations bills for the Iraq war? [/QUOTE] I said if the Congress passed a measure that rescinded the AUMF. That’s not “nothing”. BTW, in case it’s not clear , the AUMF is the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (in Iraq) that Congress passed in Oct of 2002. But even if they rescinded that AUMF, the prsident could probably still rely on the AUMF that Congress passed in 2001 that got us into Afghanistan. That AUMF is very vauge, and could be construed at this point to include Iraq since al Qaeda is now present there. ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/35 "2007-01-07T23:26:05Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] But your contention that _cutting funding_ = _president will immediately withdraw troops_ has been disputed. You are continuing to make this assertion without addressing any of the posts explaining why your assertion is incorrect. Let’s say that Pelosi _could_ cut funding for the troops currently in Iraq (even though it’s not clear if this is even politically possible). If Bush refuses to withdraw any troops, and even _one_ soldier dies as a result of the funding cut, who do you think will be blamed? [/QUOTE] I think Rep. Rangel said it best: When asked in a recent interview how a Democratic Congress could stop the war, Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), who is set to chair the Ways and Means Committee should the Democrats win the majority, precociously answered, “You’ve got to be able to pay for the war, don’t you?” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/36 "2007-01-07T23:29:42Z")
Well, **harveyc** , I guess you’ve made up your mind about this. All I can suggest is that if you really feel that Pelosi and the Democrats have sold you out, you don’t vote for them again. Am I wrong to presume that you voted for her previously? ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/37 "2007-01-07T23:30:31Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I said if the Congress passed a measure that rescinded the AUMF. That’s not “nothing”. BTW, in case it’s not clear , the AUMF is the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (in Iraq) that Congress passed in Oct of 2002. But even if they rescinded that AUMF, the prsident could probably still rely on the AUMF that Congress passed in 2001 that got us into Afghanistan. That AUMF is very vauge, and could be construed at this point to include Iraq since al Qaeda is now present there. [/QUOTE] I didn’t think the authorization included “automatic” appropriations for the war without Comgressional review and approval. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/38 "2007-01-07T23:31:28Z")
Partially what **John Mace** said. Point being, the President has funds available that he can move from one purpose to another to fund the war. He’s already got the live bodies, in uniform, with flak jackets, tanks, and everything else. That’s what’s known, in case you’ve never heard the term before, as a _fait accompli_. Every post-WWII President has used this technique, from Truman on, and all of them have regarded Congress as little more than a vague irritant. This is precisely the state of affairs the Framers were seeking to avoid. If you want it stopped, you will have to come out against having a standing army, or at least one that’s much larger than that available to, say, Costa Rica. Any other position merely dances around the question. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/39 "2007-01-07T23:41:04Z")
[QUOTE=harveyc] I think Rep. Rangel said it best: When asked in a recent interview how a Democratic Congress could stop the war, Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), who is set to chair the Ways and Means Committee should the Democrats win the majority, precociously answered, “You’ve got to be able to pay for the war, don’t you?” [/QUOTE] But Biden has said almost the exact opposite of that, that cutting funding won’t acheive that result. It’s the Democrats, not the Borg. One person doesn’t necessarily speak for the whole party. ---
**Author:** ![harveyc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e480ec/32.png) [@harveyc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harveyc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079/40 "2007-01-07T23:59:07Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] But Biden has said almost the exact opposite of that, that cutting funding won’t acheive that result. It’s the Democrats, not the Borg. One person doesn’t necessarily speak for the whole party. [/QUOTE] I am hoping the Chairman and long term member of the House Ways and Means Committee is more knowledgeable about appropriations than a Senator. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-been-sold-out-by-ms-pelosi-and-the-democrats-on-the-iraq-war/387079.md?page=3)