# Have we morally failed Afghanistan? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 14, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636 "2021-08-14T00:47:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/283 "2021-08-23T13:02:31Z")
Nobody gets letters of commendation or promotions for being the one who came up with the _Plan in Case We Fail_ and from various experiences in different fields, even acknowledging a Plan in Case We Fail outside a reserved inner circle is a major no-no no matter what the organization. > [@asahi](#): > > I view the outgrowth of the Afghan effort from one of mainly counter-terrorism to building a nation as an attempt at political error correction. The US and NATO didn’t want to just bomb and then leave a power vacuum. That is essentially what led to the rise of the Taliban after the Soviet-backed government collapsed. Right. We unseated the Taliban and damaged Al-Q and rightly realized, oh wait, there’s really nobody reliable to truly take over and prevent it happening again. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/284 "2021-08-23T13:15:05Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Nobody gets letters of commendation or promotions for being the one who came up with the _Plan in Case We Fail_ and from various experiences in different fields, even acknowledging a Plan in Case We Fail outside a reserved inner circle is a major no-no no matter what the organization. Sometimes even putting in the effort to come up with a _plan to succeed_ can get you fired if the plan diverges too extensively from what superiors have in their head as to what _should_ be done. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/285 "2021-08-23T13:28:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > YOU brought up the comparison of Nazis and French. …yeah I did. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > So your initial analogy was bullshit in this context. No it wasn’t. My analogy was directly analogous to your scenario. In neither case did the “people of Afghanistan” nor the “people of France” run into the arms of the enemy. That’s too broad a brush to be applying here. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > The Democrat vs. Republican analogy works better because this really is an internal Afghan civil **conflict**. The Taliban are every bit as Afghan as the moderate Afghans trying to escape. It doesn’t work at all and I’ve bolded the word that shows why. Democrats and Republicans aren’t in a shooting war (yet) . There is no comparison. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > The fact that MAGA are not killing moderate Republicans “currently” is equally true when compared to Afghanistan, i.e.: The Taliban are not murdering the moderate Afghans “currently” either. I mean…yes they are? [https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html) > **[Taliban murdered ethnic minorities, report says, fueling Afghans fears](https://www.tampabay.com/news/nation-world/2021/08/20/taliban-murdered-ethnic-minorities-report-says-fueling-afghans-fears/)** > > The murders occurred recently after overrunning a village, according to Amnesty International. > **['The Taliban murdered my nephews and shot at me for not wearing a headscarf'](https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/afghanistan-taliban-refugee-cardiff-uk-21341144)** > > Shahnaz Hakim said she wants the UK government to help as her family in Kabul go into hiding > **[Killing of Afghan comic by Taliban raises fears of reprisals](https://www.euronews.com/2021/08/15/killing-of-afghan-comic-by-taliban-raises-fears-of-reprisals)** > > The killing of an Afghan comic by Taliban militants this week has raised fears of revenge killings, as the Taliban take control of the country. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > But if things turn ugly, and they likely will, that comparison will also become useless. They turned ugly long ago. Its too late to be worrying about this. They’ve been in a shooting war for a very long time. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > As to the referendum voting, Afghanistan’s elections were notoriously corrupt. Insinuating that a referendum vote on the Taliban question was ever even possible is absurd. You misunderstand the context of my use of the word referendum. > [@](#): > > The Afghan army voted with their feet when they refused to fight the Taliban as they surged across the nation, occupying provincial capital after capital. They probably didn’t want this to happen to them. [https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/13/asia/afghanistan-taliban-commandos-killed-intl-hnk/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/13/asia/afghanistan-taliban-commandos-killed-intl-hnk/index.html) It’s called “sending a message.” And that message was heard loud and clear. > [@](#): > > The Afghan army wasn’t trained for 20 years in order to carry water and supplies for Western troops, LOL. > [@](#): > > No doubt some did fight bravely. Why only some? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > But the majority saw **it only as a paycheck** and abandoned the minute they realized they were on their own. And you know this how? Did you conduct a survey or something? And I don’t understand the obsession with a paycheck. They were a standing army. People in armies get paid. And if they weren’t getting paid then what the hell have the Americans been doing there for the last 20 years? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m not sure what your expectations are. How long did you expect the western allies to stay in Afghanistan and baby sit the Afghan army? Does the Afghan government share any responsibility in the failure and collapse of it’s own military and police force? How long should the west prop up a corrupt and cowardly government? Is another 20 years enough? None of this is relevant to the OP. The question was have you morally failed Afghanistan. I think that the answers you have provided so far in response to me show that yes, you absolutely have. You invaded the country, killed thousands of people, set up in occupation, tried to reinvent the government in your own image, stole resources and turned it into a money-pit for private contractors, built up hope for a generation of Afghanistan then left, effectively overnight, under the cover of darkness, shrugging your shoulders saying “we did the best that we could.” “Oh, and by the way, none of this is our fault, you were always destined to fail, and you were cowards and you deserve everything thats coming to you.” That is moral failure. [note the you I use above is a generic “you”, and not directed at any particular poster.] ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/286 "2021-08-23T13:49:33Z")
I’m not going to get involved in a tedious frame by frame quote parsing contest. So I’ll just address this: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And I don’t understand the obsession with a paycheck. They were a standing army. People in armies get paid. And if they weren’t getting paid then what the hell have the Americans been doing there for the last 20 years? Do you understand how armies work and who is responsible for ensuring that your national military is paid and has all the resources it requires? Who is ultimately responsible for ensuring the command structure is maintained and enforced? Is it typically a coalition of other nations in perpetuity or is it, after 20 years and well over a trillion in foreign aid, the nation, government and citizens themselves that must assume that responsibility? For 20 years the Taliban was under attack and siege by the Western coalition. Meanwhile, for 20 years, the Afghan military and government were financed, propped up and trained by the Western coalition. And in the end, all it took was for Taliban to kill 22 Afghan commandos for the Afghan military to lay down arms. Why is it that the Taliban was able to do what the Afghan military could not or would not? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/287 "2021-08-23T14:11:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Do you understand how armies work and who is responsible for ensuring that your national military is paid and has all the resources it requires? …yep. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Who is ultimately responsible for ensuring the command structure is maintained and enforced? Is it typically a coalition of other nations in perpetuity or is it, after 20 years and well over a trillion in foreign aid, the nation, government and citizens themselves that must assume that responsibility? These are all the wrong questions. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Meanwhile, for 20 years, the Afghan military and government were **financed, propped up and trained by the Western coalition.** And in the end, all it took was for Taliban to kill 22 Afghan commandos for the Afghan military to lay down arms. Why is it that the Taliban was able to do what the Afghan military could not or would not? Perhaps the financing was shit. Perhaps the training was shit. Perhaps the fundamental idea of “propping up the military” was fundamentally flawed. Perhaps the Coalition soldiers treated the Afghan soldiers with disdain, just like you have been here, and after being treated with disdain over 20 years fighting a nebulous war on behalf of the occupiers who decided to just “cut and run” they didn’t feel they could continue to fight a war that had no clear outcome or objectives when they hadn’t even been paid for months. Maybe it wasn’t just those 22 soldiers. Perhaps it has hundreds more, or even thousands over the last few years. Perhaps they knew that if they took up arms and fought and died then there would be nobody to earn money for the household (because the Taliban aren’t allowing women to work) and they put down arms in a moral obligation to family. Whatever it is: America still morally failed Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/288 "2021-08-23T14:19:32Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Perhaps the financing was shit. Perhaps the training was shit. Perhaps the fundamental idea of “propping up the military” was fundamentally flawed. Perhaps the Coalition soldiers treated the Afghan soldiers with disdain, just like you have been here, and after being treated with disdain over 20 years fighting a nebulous war on behalf of the occupiers who decided to just “cut and run” they didn’t feel they could continue to fight a war that had no clear outcome or objectives when they hadn’t even been paid for months. Maybe it wasn’t just those 22 soldiers. Perhaps it has hundreds more, or even thousands over the last few years. Perhaps they knew that if they took up arms and fought and died then there would be nobody to earn money for the household (because the Taliban aren’t allowing women to work) and they put down arms in a moral obligation to family. How about the far more likely and far less speculative “perhaps”? Perhaps the majority of Afghans do not see the Taliban as the enemy; never have. Because the Taliban are Afghans too. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/289 "2021-08-23T14:50:33Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > How about the far more likely and far less speculative “perhaps”? …have you been reading the things that **you** have said in this thread? I’ve provided more cites in a single post than you have in response to anything I’ve said. I think that everything I have said is much more likely to be true than the things you have said. I don’t think I’ve speculated at all: I think the evidence is pretty much in my favour. So while this thread remains in IMHO I’ll continue to express MHO. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/290 "2021-08-23T14:55:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think that everything I have said is much more likely to be true than the things you have said. Ahh, well then… since you’re prepared to declare unilateral victory, take another lap. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/291 "2021-08-23T15:09:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > {…} they didn’t feel they could continue to fight a war that had no clear outcome or objectives {…} I guess ‘Kill the guys trying to kill you so ~~we~~ you can live in a country not run by the Taliban.’ wasn’t a clear enough objective and outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/292 "2021-08-23T15:10:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Ahh, well then… since you’re prepared to declare unilateral victory, take another lap. …you suggested that how "about the far more likely and far less speculative “perhaps”? All I’m suggesting is that you do the same. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/293 "2021-08-23T16:30:21Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I guess ‘Kill the guys trying to kill you so ~~we~~ you can live in a country not run by the Taliban.’ wasn’t a clear enough objective and outcome? I suggest you read this article in Bloomberg: **[President Biden Dishonored Afghanistan’s Long-Suffering Military](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-08-17/biden-dishonored-afghanistan-s-military-which-suffered-66-000-fatalities)** _In the course of two decades, more than 66,000 soldiers and police gave their lives to preserve their nation._ > The fact is that Afghanistan’s police and security forces _have_ been fighting and dying to protect their people — as well as the American soldiers and civilians living and working among them — for two decades. > > **Over 66,000 Afghan soldiers and police have paid the ultimate price. Hundreds thousands have been injured, many of them for life.** There is no accounting for how many of these casualties are a direct consequence of decisions made by the U.S. military and political leadership. In roughly the same period, coalition forces suffered about 3,500 deaths. > > No less important is the American culpability in the failures of the Afghan security forces. It was the U.S. military, in the main, that recruited and trained the police and soldiery, which on paper number around 350,000. The Afghan military, cast in the American mold, was **set up to fail** , as Admiral James Stravidis has persuasively argued. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/294 "2021-08-23T16:33:21Z")
So, we shoulda stayed and made them fail harder? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/295 "2021-08-23T16:41:29Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, we shoulda stayed and made them fail harder?   It’s up to you whether you want to take the trouble to actually understand what happened and why, or whether you’re satisfied with ignorance and prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/296 "2021-08-23T16:41:49Z")
Another problem is that while we hypothetically could have negotiated with the Taliban once they were on the ropes, the political reality made that nearly impossible. At home, this would have been about as popular as, say, negotiating with Japan in 1942-43. This also explains why a lot of people are confused about the objectives. The primary objective was eliminating AQ’s capabilities, but because the justification for invading Afghanistan was a direct response to the Taliban’s explicit refusal to expel Al Qaida, the mission crept in a sense. And once we nearly vanquished the Taliban, the reality is that in some ways, we made our escape a lot more complicated. Afghanistan is the Hotel California for aging empires. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/297 "2021-08-23T16:45:11Z")
If this is true, > The Afghan military, cast in the American mold, was set up to fail, as Admiral James Stravidis has persuasively argued. then how the fuck is it in the Afghan’s interest for us to not leave? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/298 "2021-08-23T16:47:20Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > then how the fuck is it in the Afghan’s interest for us to not leave? Maybe it was the _way_ of leaving that made the situation far worse? See the article about Bagram Airbase. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/299 "2021-08-23T16:57:38Z")
Our failures weren’t confined to the military either; we knew that Hamid Karzai had some shady connections. Having said that, Afghanistan’s political history is littered with examples of corruption and resistance to reform - that’s not on the Americans or NATO. I don’t know if we had a lot of options – at least not a lot of good ones in terms of setting up a representative democracy. Perhaps _that_ was our mistake: assuming that Afghanistan needed to be a checks-and-balances type presidential democracy modeled after the US, something underscored even more by the events of January 6 in Washington, DC. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/300 "2021-08-23T17:05:15Z")
What you and the other likeminded poster, continue to avoid answering is the fundamental question of why a smaller, less well funded & armed, arguably far more beleaguered group of resistance fighters (Taliban) was able to do what the Afghan army could not do unless they continued to receive permanent aid of Western coalition forces. I’m not saying that 66,000 dead Afghan soldiers didn’t fight bravely. I’m saying that those who remained chose not to do so because they came to the realization (a very long time ago) that life under a theocratic regime is not so terrible after all. So, while the West is handing out paychecks, why not pretend they were Afghan army soldiers. And why not as long as the risk of dying was relatively low due to the overwhelming support of the foreign army nanny troops. I’m pretty sure we all agree that Western ground force involvement in Afghanistan was a mistake in 2001 and that the mistake was compounded in the 20 years hence. The thing that I find puzzling is that your argument seems to be that the Western coalition has the moral obligation to stay & continue to compound that mistake, as if there is an alternative strategy available to turn things around. If so, I’d dearly love to hear what that other, morally justifiable strategy is. Since we can’t turn back 20 years of failed strategy, perhaps you can outline what the next 20 years would look like. > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Maybe it was the _way_ of leaving that made the situation far worse? > > See the article about Bagram Airbase. Fine. Let’s hear your winning, morally defensible, departure strategy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/301 "2021-08-23T17:09:54Z")
This crap comes from the same people, including that journalist who wrote the article, who have been pushing for the endless war for over a decade. They’ve been wrong for years, and they still are. The endless war helped no one but the profiteers. It’s long past time to end it. Seriously, fuck the chickenhawks and the other endless war advocates. They’re not worth listening to, not in the least. Those who have been lying and incompetent for years on this issue should be cast from the realm of reasonable discussion and consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/302 "2021-08-23T17:21:03Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > But nobody expected it would end like that, with a beaten whimper from America. > > After 20 years of saying how much you wanted to create a better country, nobody expected you to leave with absolutely zero concern for what happened next. And this was 100% clear more than a month ago. You say nobody expected it and it was 100% clear it was going to happen. I feel the reality is that we knew the Afghan government was going to collapse when we left. That it happened this quickly was a surprise but nobody thought it was going to last in the long term. So what was the alternative? Keep our troops in Afghanistan and give the Afghanis another twenty years to form a stable government? Yes, the collapse that’s going on right now is bad. But it was inevitable whenever we reached the point of leaving. But I’ll make this prediction. In five years, nobody will be saying “Boy, I wish we still had our troops in Afghanistan.” Getting out of Afghanistan is bad. But it’s a necessary step to being out of Afghanistan, which is good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=16)