# Have we morally failed Afghanistan? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 14, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636 "2021-08-14T00:47:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/323 "2021-08-24T00:31:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But a question for you: does " a military jobs program populated by nonmilitary people or “paper” forces (that didn’t really exist)" sound like it was particularly well trained army to you? You can’t train an army that doesn’t exist except to collect a paycheck. Also, you may be mistaken about how this training thing works. The Afghan army does not answer to the US trainers. Nor does the US set standards or take attendance of regular Afghan forces. They can only train people who are willing to show up and take their responsibilities seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/324 "2021-08-24T00:54:12Z")
Given that a lot of people have mentioned the catastrophic situation with women’s rights in Afghanistan, which is likely to continue getting more catastrophic in the near future, it’s interesting to get a perspective from the [Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan](http://www.rawa.org/index.php) (RAWA). RAWA is an indigenous feminism and human rights organization founded in Kabul in 1977, which has been fighting for women’s rights, secularism, democracy and social justice ever since. [Here’s their view on the US/NATO occupation and the recent pullout](http://www.rawa.org/rawa/2021/08/21/rawa-responds-to-the-taliban-takeover.html). > [@](#): > > In the past 20 years, one of our demands was an end to the US/NATO occupation and even better if they take their Islamic fundamentalists and technocrats with them and let our people decide their own fate. This occupation only resulted in bloodshed, destruction and chaos. They turned our country into the most corrupt, insecure, drug-mafia and dangerous place especially for women. > > From the very beginning we could predict such an outcome. On the first days of the US occupation of Afghanistan, RAWA declared on October 11, 2001: > > “The continuation of US attacks and the increase in the number of innocent civilian victims not only gives an excuse to the Taliban, but also will cause the empowerment of the fundamentalist forces in the region and even in the world.” > > The main reason we were against this occupation was their backing of terrorism under the nice banner of “war on terror”. From the very first days when the Northern Alliance looters and killers were installed back into power in 2002 to the last so-called peace talks, deals and agreements in Doha and release of 5000 terrorists from prisons in 2020/21, it was very obvious that even the withdrawal won’t have a good end. […] > > It is a joke to say values like “women’s rights”, “democracy”, “nation-building” etc. were part of the US/NATO aims in Afghanistan! US was in Afghanistan to turn region into instability and terrorism to encircling the rival powers especially China and Russia and undermining their economies via regional wars. But of course the US government did not want such a disastrous, disgraceful and embarrassing exit that left behind such a commotion that they were forced to send troops again in 48 hours to control the airport and safely evacuate its diplomats and staff. > > We believe the US left Afghanistan out of its own weaknesses not defeated by its creatures (Taliban). There are two significant reasons for this withdrawal. > > The main reason is the multifold internal crisis in the US. The signs of the US system decline was seen in the weak response to Covid-19 pandemic, attack on Capitol Hill and the great protests of the US public in the past few years. The policy-makers were forced to withdraw troops to focus on internal burning issues. > > The second reason is that the Afghan war was an exceptionally expensive war whose cost has gone into trillions, all taken from taxpayer money. This put such a heavy dent on the US financially that it had to leave Afghanistan. > > The war-mongering policies prove that their aim was never to make Afghanistan safer, let alone now when they are leaving. Furthermore, they also knew that the withdrawal would be chaotic yet they still went ahead and did it. Now Afghanistan is in the limelight again due to the Taliban being in power but this has been the situation for the past 20 years and everyday hundreds of our people were killed and our country destroyed, it just was rarely reported in the media. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/325 "2021-08-24T01:14:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …because none of this is relevant to the thread. The question posed by the OP is “have we morally failed Afghanistan?” The question you ask is intended to take things off topic, and I’m not particularly interested in playing those games. Understand something. I don’t think this was a war that needed to happen on this scope and scale, and certainly should not have continued to happen for 20 years. For that, I blame American senior leadership, civilian and military. But now that someone has finally decided to step up, own it and put an end to it, people who have an axe to grind, are calling the decision a _moral failure_. Well isn’t that convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/326 "2021-08-24T01:19:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You can’t train an army that doesn’t exist except to collect a paycheck. …can you be crystal clear here: are you generalizing here, or is this your honestly held opinion about every soldier in the Afghanistan Army? Do you think that Ameican soldiers who are working for a paycheck exist as well? Is that a bad thing? And to what extent does propaganda motivate US soldiers to fight, and do you think that is a good thing? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > They can only train people who are willing to show up and take their responsibilities seriously. What does this even mean? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > But now that someone has finally decided to step up, own it and put an end to it, people who have an axe to grind, are calling the decision a _moral failure_ . Understand something. I don’t have an axe to grind. I’m just calling it as I see it. This is a thread in IMHO, and I’m expressing my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/327 "2021-08-24T01:39:24Z")
I work with veterans every day. My son is in active service, state-side, at least for now. It’s been my experience that the overwhelming majority choose to serve for reasons that go beyond a paycheck. I also think that the circumstances under which one serves (peace vs war) has a tremendous influence on one’s perspective about why they’re doing it. If I’m wrong, there are people on this message board who served and they will correct me if I’m wrong. Perhaps that’s even a question worthy of its own thread. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is a thread in IMHO, and I’m expressing my opinion. Your opinion is _wrong._ C’mon. You had to know that was coming. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/328 "2021-08-24T01:52:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you think that Ameican soldiers who are working for a paycheck exist as well? Is that a bad thing? I don’t know of any widespread issue of US soldiers enlisting, never reporting for duty, and forwarding half of their paycheck to the sergeant who marks them off as “Present”, as was largely the case in the ANA. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/329 "2021-08-24T02:07:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s been my experience that the overwhelming majority choose to serve for reasons that go beyond a paycheck. I also think that the circumstances under which one serves (peace vs war) has a tremendous influence on one’s perspective about why they’re doing it. If I’m wrong, there are people on this message board who served and they will correct me if I’m wrong. Perhaps that’s even a question worthy of its own thread. …do you accept that what you are providing here is anecdotal evidence, and that the evidence you have provided that the Afghanistan Army was “only serving for the paycheck” is substantially weaker than your anecdotal evidence? > [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t know of any widespread issue of US soldiers enlisting, never reporting for duty, and forwarding half of their paycheck to the sergeant who marks them off as “Present”, as was largely the case in the ANA. There are about a thousand other issues that the Afghan soldiers had to deal with that US soldiers don’t. But that really isn’t material to my point. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/330 "2021-08-24T02:12:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > it. If I’m wrong, there are people on this message board who served and they will correct me if I’m wrong. My personal opinion is that people who are not in the military should be loathe to speak to their “experience” with what members of the military think. And even people who _are_ in the military should refrain from presenting their personal views on service as being anything close to representative of the wider force. I’ll simply note that in my experience, there was a lot of angst over government shutdowns that threatened pay (even if it was just a matter of delay which a number of banking and aid organizations rogered up to cover with interest free loans on demand to servicemembers if delays actually arose), although having a functioning military “justice” system (that could be used to punish people failing to follow orders, with or without pay) certainly helped remind people they couldn’t just stay home. Anyway, this is all apples to footballs. You can’t compare a US soldier who ends up in someone else’s country and would probably like to get home and away, to someone who already is home, and would Iike to stay there. There’s a very different set of choices facing Afghan soldiers, with or without pay, which was kind of the point of [the blog post I linked to way upthread](https://songsofbabylon.wordpress.com/2021/08/14/fp7/). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/331 "2021-08-24T04:11:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Exactly. 20 years, trillions of dollars, and thousands of lives down the drain, with absolutely nothing to show for it. Agreed. And another twenty years, another trillion dollars, and another thousand lives wouldn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/332 "2021-08-24T04:14:29Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Admiral Stavridis gave the answer: He said nothing that backs up what you said. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/333 "2021-08-24T12:35:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …do you accept that what you are providing here is anecdotal evidence, and that the evidence you have provided that the Afghanistan Army was “only serving for the paycheck” is substantially weaker than your anecdotal evidence? I stand corrected, it was a Plywood Army: > **[The Plywood Army](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/plywood-army-afghanistan/619779/)** > > America has always had one foot out the door in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2021, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/334 "2021-08-24T15:55:50Z")
Yes, Kunce’s story is anecdotal evidence of a ineffective fighting force. But who do you believe? Someone with first hand experience who is a professional in the field or some bureaucrat who may not have ever stepped foot in the country? Its not like we are ever going to see a peer-reviewed study on the dedication of the enlisted Afghan soldier. It isn’t as though there isn’t a history of our political and military leaders lying to the country about a war in some far off land while the front line soldiers were saying, “This is not winnable. The government we are tying to support is riddled with corruption.” Fool me once… Well, shame on me and all of us for not demanding an earlier exit. Whether or not you believe that the U.S. has morally failed Afghanistan, it pretty clear to me that the U.S,. has morally failed its own people. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/335 "2021-08-25T00:19:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I stand corrected, it was a Plywood Army: > > [The Plywood Army - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/plywood-army-afghanistan/619779/) …it seems apparent that your opinion that the people of Afghanistan are cowards and the soldiers are just working for a paycheck have been entirely formed by the opinions of veteran US soldiers. Thanks for citing yet another one, but I don’t think that it proves any of your points. If we aren’t hearing from the people of Afghanistan, then we are only hearing one side of the story. And that side (and in the case of this particular cite, a former Intelligence Officer hawking a book) isn’t particularly convincing. > [@MikeF](#): > > Yes, Kunce’s story is anecdotal evidence of a ineffective fighting force. Nobody has argued that the Afghan Army (on its own, with no air or logistics support) was an effective fighting force. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/336 "2021-08-25T13:12:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If we aren’t hearing from the people of Afghanistan, then we are only hearing one side of the story. You’re right. Let’s wait to hear what the side that negotiated a surrender with the Taliban, sold it’s weapons and went home has to say. Given our understanding of Afghanistan’s tribal and war torn history, I can completely appreciate why things ended up exactly as they have. Poorly educated, poor and religiously oppressed people who are offered foreign money and training to fight for a cause they don’t actually believe in are going to behave exactly as they have. Add systemic corruption, leadership vacuum, lack of accountability, lack of trust or cultural connection to a foreign transient military force – a successful outcome would have been a miracle. It should be telling that the loudest and most progressive Afghan voices we hear are those of women who are trying to drag themselves and their country out of oppressive theocratic middle ages into the modern world where people are not controlled by threat of violence and ancient tribal custom. Equally telling are the latest reports in which the Taliban is telling women to stay home “for their own safety”. Whatever the motives of the ANA may have been before it capitulated to the Taliban, you cannot argue that protecting the interests of Afghan women and children (the future of progress in Afghan society) was their top priority. For too many, their priority was much more short sighted than that. After 20 years of training and economic support, those who seized the opportunities offered for change are desperately trying to get themselves and their families on planes to escape what they know is coming. The list of mistakes in long and those of western coalition policy & military involvement of 20 years is not least among them. But let’s not pretend like the ANA has not been given ample opportunity to succeed nor therefore share the blame for this outcome. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/337 "2021-08-25T13:19:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Whatever the motives of the ANA may have been before it capitulated to the Taliban, you cannot argue that protecting the interests of Afghan women and children (the future of progress in Afghan society) was their top priority. For too many, their priority was much more short sighted than that. As I read this, I can’t help but draw a mental connection to the [École Polytechnique massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre) and wonder what your thoughts must be on that. Personally, I don’t know how you’re able to draw the conclusions you’ve drawn about what must or must not be motivating Afghan security forces. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/338 "2021-08-25T13:26:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > As I read this, I can’t help but draw a mental connection to the [École Polytechnique massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre) and wonder what your thoughts must be on that. Draw this connection out for me. I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/339 "2021-08-25T13:28:01Z")
I mean, do you fall into the camp that would cast some level of blame or criticism on the men who survived the massacre on the basis that “protecting the interests of… women… was [not] their top priority.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/340 "2021-08-25T13:30:35Z")
You’re asking me to draw some parallels between average citizens caught in a horrible situation and an ostensibly trained and equipped military force? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/341 "2021-08-25T13:31:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You’re right. Let’s wait to hear what the side that negotiated a surrender with the Taliban, sold it’s weapons and went home has to say. …and it becomes more and more obvious that you don’t want to hear any other version of what happened, except for the narrative you have chosen to believe. Well we are in IMHO, and you are entitled to your HO. And I’ll leave that there. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2021, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/342 "2021-08-25T13:31:50Z")
No, I’m wondering if you’ve distinguished the fact that the men in the massacre were ordinary citizens where as the men of the ANA were (allegedly) a trained fighting force. Because there might be a bit more gray there than you realize, or have been willing to grant, if that’s your distinction. ETA: But, there is also a lot to unpack in terms of how we empathize and sympathize (or don’t) with victims or the oppressed and perhaps masculinity as well. Who we consider deserving of our sympathy, and who we will heap scorn on for not living up to some standard that we have adjudged ourselves the arbiters of. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=18)