# Have we morally failed Afghanistan? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 14, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636 "2021-08-14T00:47:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/41 "2021-08-15T03:03:38Z")
But perhaps seen as a puppet of the American government? The Afhgans have been occupied by foreign powers, what, 30 out of the last 40 years? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/42 "2021-08-15T03:07:19Z")
The US did not break Afghanistan; it was pretty damn broken when we arrived in 2001. For all of our faults, we probably did as much as any country on the planet to improve it, however short-lived these improvements were. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/43 "2021-08-15T04:03:49Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The Iraqi army was literally running away from rebel forces. It was only when Baghdad was threatened that the government forces fought back. The government asked for US help but most of the fighting was by the Iraq forces. They retook Mosul in 2017. This replies in this thread, and @aceplace57’s comment invoking the situation in Iraq in particular, have inspired me to write one blog post today on Afghanistan (normally it takes me a few days, especially when it’s a somewhat weighty subject), and also to share an entry that I wrote a little over a year ago about Iraq, in what I fear may prove to be a parallel situation to that unfolding Afghanistan. But then Afghanistan may yet turn out worse, so… ☹ Anyway, the year-old entry about Iraq: > **[The Camp Speicher Massacre Happened](https://songsofbabylon.com/2020/06/12/camp-speicher-massacre/)** > > On June 12, 2014, 1,700 unarmed Iraqi Air Force trainees were rounded up by the “Islamic State” and massacred at a place called Camp Speicher. For those who’d prefer not to read my blog (understandable) and just have a discussion here, the main thrust of the entry about Iraq—apart from covering some of the preceding history, the massacre itself, and my thoughts and… “feelings”—is: > Over the course of three wars and thirty years, the name “Speicher” went from an American servicemember killed in action, to a site occupied by US forces and named in his honor, to a massacre perpetrated in the aftermath of the US withdrawal. In a sense, the **Camp Speicher Massacre** is both the **best** and **worst** possible metaphor for America’s failure to navigate the difference between **interventionism** and **isolationism**. As the US withdrawals forces from Afghanistan and elsewhere, it should be careful not to divorce itself too readily from those parts of the world where it can still exert positive influence, particularly through intelligence sharing, diplomatic engagement, and economic aid, and most of all in locations where it has had a hand in bringing about or perpetuating instability. **Withdrawal, but do not abandon**. And then, from today, there’s my latest effort. It pretty much just echoes my rantings and ravings here and elsewhere on this board, but perhaps does a better job of encapsulating my sense of the situation without getting too over the top (as I may have done in a certain pit thread, although I still stand by the overall sentiment): > **[Cowardice in Afghanistan](https://songsofbabylon.com/2021/08/14/fp7/)** > > TRIGGER WARNING: for vampires and anyone else who doesn’t like having reflective surfaces pointed at them. And the nearest I come to a conclusion with that latest blog post might as well be a response to this comment by @asahi: > [@asahi](#): > > The US did not break Afghanistan; it was pretty damn broken when we arrived in 2001. For all of our faults, we probably did as much as any country on the planet to improve it, however short-lived these improvements were. Honestly, I just don’t know that that’s true. I honestly don’t know if we did anything good for the country by inviting people to put their lives on the line for us, giving them just enough rope for the hangman to do his job. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/44 "2021-08-15T04:20:00Z")
I personally know a few individuals who, for a few years, had hope, had dreams, had the opportunity to do things that they couldn’t have dreamt of doing had the U.S. not invaded. I was responding to the idea that we somehow ‘broke’ Afghanistan. We didn’t break it. I’m as critical of US foreign policy and policy in Afghan, Iraq, etc as anyone you’ll find, but Afghanistan was a broken country. I’m not delusional - I know that the US invaded Afghanistan, like Iraq, to further its own political interests first and foremost, but as with other countries we’ve occupied, we tried to offer the Afghans something in return. As it turns out, we just didn’t have the logistics, the appreciation and knowledge of the country and cultures, and the domestic political will to see our project through to a successful end. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/45 "2021-08-15T11:10:42Z")
A US woman veteran’s perspective on Afghanistan: > **[Afghanistan Meant Nothing](https://laurajedeed.medium.com/afghanistan-meant-nothing-9e3f099b00e5)** > > A Veteran Reflects on 20 Wasted Years Well worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/46 "2021-08-15T11:22:01Z")
To the extent that we “morally failed” Afghanistan, it was by invading it and setting up a client state in the first place. All that we’ve done by withdrawing is restore things to the status quo antebellum. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/47 "2021-08-15T11:42:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Because.they.are.Afghan.not.Foreign. > How difficult is this thing to grasp. They’re Americans, **AK84**. They don’t really understand nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/48 "2021-08-15T13:05:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > They’re Americans, **AK84**. They don’t really understand nationalism. Guilty as charged. I would prefer to be ruled by certain foreigners than by certain of my fellow Americans. Ironically, if the choice was between the current German\* or Japanese\* governments, or the current governments of South Korea, New Zealand, Norway, or France vs. another term of Donald Trump, I would take any of those foreign governments. I’d make that choice even if it included troops from those countries being in the United States. - Yes, I started with those two to be particularly ironic. ETA. I’m sure I could add other countries to the list as well, but of course I’m not familiar with the governments of all the 200+ countries out there. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/49 "2021-08-15T13:43:41Z")
I see it as a situation where two sets of values are in conflict. Not US values vs the Taliban, but our own values against themselves. One value is about human rights and individual freedoms - which women most particularly will not have under the Taliban. The other is self-determination and anti-colonialism, the right of a country to rule itself, according to its own people’s ideas. So you pays your money ($2,000,000,000,000 to date), and you takes your choice. Either plan to make it a colony indefinitely, or leave. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/50 "2021-08-15T14:35:53Z")
No you wouldn’t. As @Alessan says as well, it’s nationalism. If the Chinese took over the US and implemented al your preferred policies, and the main resistance to them and their local dupes came from Trump and his supporters…you would be on Trumps side. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/51 "2021-08-15T14:58:42Z")
It really would depend on the details. If we’re talking about the current US, with the Biden administration, vs. the Chinese Communist Party, that’s one thing, and yes, I’d side with the Trumpists. But let’s say it’s 2026, and Trump is president, and people are dropping like flies because Trump is discouraging masks and vaccines. Let’s say that Trump has declared himself president for life, and that Don Jr. will inherit the Oval Office. No more elections. We now have things like enforced Christian prayer in public schools, abortion being totally illegal, the police being encouraged to mistreat minorities, etc. Now let’s say the alternative is Angela Merkel, with German troops keeping the Trumpists from doing all that shit by force, and the country being ruled in a way that an average Democratic president would run it. I would side with the Merkel government in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/52 "2021-08-15T15:15:11Z")
The hyperspeed collapse of the American-created Afghan military and government just demonstrates the wisdom of this withdrawal – in 20 years, _we accomplished nothing_. Not a thing, at least with regards to building a different Afghanistan. Just a monumental waste of time, money, and most importantly, lives. Good riddance to terrible military-foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/53 "2021-08-15T15:33:58Z")
I hope that I will be gone from my country (Holland) before such a government takes power. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/54 "2021-08-15T15:50:02Z")
I’m not sure which government exactly your referring to. The Taliban or some of the hypothetical governments that I mentioned? Either way, I genuinely don’t understand the sentiment that it’s better to be ruled by shitty fellow countrymen than by benevolent foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/55 "2021-08-15T16:23:09Z")
We should abandon the illusion that America controls the world. It was not our decision to make about what kind of government Afghanistan would have. Like South Vietnam, we gave Afghanistan an extended opportunity to form a stable government. They did not do so. After twenty years, it’s time for us to leave. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/56 "2021-08-15T16:53:18Z")
Does anyone think it would make any difference if the US withdrew in 2021, 2051, or 2121? I don’t think so. This region is ungovernable and unconquerable and I don’t think it ever will be anything but a failed state. The Soviets tried and failed, the US tried and failed, whoever conquers next will ultimately fail. Sure, it’s sad for the women in particular, but at some point you have to stop throwing good money after bad. I’m just glad that it happened in a non-election year, as the ecstasy among Republicans will fade as we realize hey, this was the right move. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/57 "2021-08-15T17:03:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Does anyone think it would make any difference if the US withdrew in 2021, 2051, or 2121? I don’t think so. There are some who do. Check out the sister thread “[Afghanistan Today](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/afghanistan-today/948624)” in which both **Magiver** and **Sam\_Stone** think it is a mistake to withdraw. (Mods should consider just merging these two threads.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/58 "2021-08-15T17:57:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Does anyone think it would make any difference if the US withdrew in 2021, 2051, or 2121? I’m going to go out on a limb and say it would make a gigantic difference to the women in Afghanistan alive in 2021, 2051, and 2021. It would also make a huge difference to all those Afghans who visibly supported the U.S. against the Taliban, at the U.S.'s prodding, who are now going to be persecuted. It would make the biggest difference to all those young women who now have educations and who we promised would have a bright future, who are now being sold into sexual slavery. Those ‘16 brave Afghan women’ linked above are now destined to either run for their lives or face a gruesome end. And it will make a huge difference to America, which is going to walk away from this in humiliation and is going to lose status and influence in the world. It’s going to remind everyone that anyone who trusts the United States is a fool. It’s always only one election away from reneging on its promises. It will make foreign policy that much harder. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/59 "2021-08-15T18:01:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And it will make a huge difference to America, which is going to walk away from this in humiliation and is going to lose status and influence in the world. It’s going to remind everyone that anyone who trusts the United States is a fool. Who the hell didn’t know that already? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2021, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/60 "2021-08-15T18:02:58Z")
Where was all this concern about the women of Afghanistan in the 80’s? Ya know, when we supported the Islamic fundamentalists and opposed the communists that were trying to allow all those young women educations and a ~~bright~~ brighter future? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=4)