# Have we morally failed Afghanistan? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 14, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636 "2021-08-14T00:47:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/143 "2021-08-16T19:29:27Z")
What are you talking about? I was not attacking a poster. I was suggesting the military may have taken its eye off the ball. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/144 "2021-08-16T20:03:16Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > A withdrawal in winter might have worked better, given that the Taliban’s seasonal offensives typically took place in summer and not winter. I doubt it. If the other side is going to say “Well, here ya go” and hand over their guns and walk away (or join you) as soon as you show up, you can run that offensive equally well no matter what month it is. There’s no logistics or strategy involved beyond how much gas you need to drive to the next town and watch them surrender as well. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/145 "2021-08-16T20:27:28Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > There’s no logistics or strategy involved beyond how much gas you need to drive to the next town and watch them surrender as well. They could have saved themselves the expense of fuel with some Zoom calls. It seemed most cities and villages surrendered faster than the Taliban could drive there. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/146 "2021-08-16T20:41:49Z")
@iiandyiiii Operation Cyclone 1979 under Reagan ring any bells? Then Al-Qaeda evolved out of the CIA funded mujahedeen militia. They came if I remember correctly, from different areas, Pakistan, Afghanistan and somewhere else. George W Bush’s daddy was the director of the CIA. Later I think it came it was about an oil or gas pipeline. Afghanistan kicked Russia’s ass too. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/147 "2021-08-16T20:45:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Remember there was a force-wide stand-down a few months ago until everyone had received diversity training Cite? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/148 "2021-08-16T20:52:44Z")
It’s bullshit. I work for the Navy as a civilian, and that “stand down” consisted of a single 2-3 hour meeting/discussion and then maybe three 1-hour meetings over the next month. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/149 "2021-08-16T20:55:57Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > I see it as a situation where two sets of values are in conflict. Not US values vs the Taliban, but our own values against themselves. One value is about human rights and individual freedoms - which women most particularly will not have under the Taliban. The other is self-determination and anti-colonialism, the right of a country to rule itself, according to its own people’s ideas. So you pays your money ($2,000,000,000,000 to date), and you takes your choice. Either plan to make it a colony indefinitely, or leave. I think the reality is that from a practical standpoint, the latter pretty much always trumps the former. I think for most people, very few situations justify the invasion and occupation of a foreign country for humanitarian reasons. Even genocides rarely prompt foreign military intervention. For Afghanistan, since the primary reason for the invasion was a response to 9/11, the occupation and subsequent improvement in humanitarian condition for many people was a side effect, not the original reason for being there. It may have become one of the reasons for staying (though I’m sure there were other foreign policy reasons for staying as well, possibly more important), but it doesn’t seem like a strong enough reason to continue to incur the human and financial costs of staying there. Sadly, for many Afgans. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say it would make a gigantic difference to the women in Afghanistan alive in 2021, 2051, and 2021. It would also make a huge difference to all those Afghans who visibly supported the U.S. against the Taliban, at the U.S.'s prodding, who are now going to be persecuted. > > It would make the biggest difference to all those young women who now have educations and who we promised would have a bright future, who are now being sold into sexual slavery. Those ‘16 brave Afghan women’ linked above are now destined to either run for their lives or face a gruesome end. > > And it will make a huge difference to America, which is going to walk away from this in humiliation and is going to lose status and influence in the world. It’s going to remind everyone that anyone who trusts the United States is a fool. It’s always only one election away from reneging on its promises. It will make foreign policy that much harder. That’s what makes this situation so tragic - that some Afghans have experienced some time away from Taliban rule, and will now have that brutally taken away from them. But that temporary improvement to some Afghan lives came at exceptional cost, and there was no clear path to sustainment. It is like prolonging the life of a some terminal patients using dialysis - if the dialysis cost billions and also the lives of the very doctors treating the patients. It seems like many people were sold a story of a cure when temporary treatment was the only thing actually achievable. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > I think we can all agree that the women of Afghanistan have been put in dire straits. The question is, what is the price we should be willing to pay in order to help them? More hundreds of billions of dollars for an occupation that would never end? At some point, the Afghans have to stand on their own if they want to have a functional government. It’s clear that they weren’t ready this year, wouldn’t be ready next year, and very well wouldn’t be ready decades from now. How many hundreds of billions would the US have to spend to avoid the coming humanitarian disaster? How many more thousands of lives? In a world of infinite resources, of course we would like to help as much as we can. But infinite military spending wasn’t going to turn Afghanistan into Sweden. This was a war which never should have started and had to end sometime. Yes, it will be painful to rip off the bandaid now, but there is no timing that would have been ideal. It’s one of those “the best time to do this was 20 years ago, the next best time is now” sort of things. > [@Sherrerd](#): > > Similarly with the Uyghurs in China. We deplore the inhumane and vicious way the Chinese government treats them. > > And we do nothing. At the end of the day, what is the best way to address humanitarian atrocities around the world? I think ultimately very few people have enough conviction about them to believe war and occupation are appropriate responses. Economic sanctions or attempts to improve poorer countries’ standards of living are about as much as most countries can and will do. A grim thought crossed my mind - if Germany hadn’t invaded other countries leading up to World War II, and simply carried out the Holocaust within its own borders, and it somehow became widely publicized across the globe, would any countries have declared war against Germany to stop it? It pains me to think that nobody would have intervened, but I’m not sure who would have led the charge. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/150 "2021-08-16T21:00:27Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > Operation Cyclone 1979 under Reagan ring any bells? Then Al-Qaeda evolved out of the CIA funded mujahedeen militia. They came if I remember correctly, from different areas, Pakistan, Afghanistan and somewhere else. George W Bush’s daddy was the director of the CIA. Yeah. Tom Hanks starred in a great movie about it, called, “Charlie Wilson’s War”. But what does George H.W. Bush have to do with this. He was the CIA director to Gerald Ford in 1975-1976. He returned back to Texas when Carter was elected in 1976. So no idea what that has to do with your first point. > [@shh1313](#): > > Later I think it came it was about an oil or gas pipeline. This was literally a pipe dream. It never going to happen and was not the reason for the invasion of Afghanistan by the US. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/151 "2021-08-16T21:27:16Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > I think the reality is that from a practical standpoint, the latter pretty much always trumps the former. I think for most people, very few situations justify the invasion and occupation of a foreign country for humanitarian reasons. Even genocides rarely prompt foreign military intervention. For Afghanistan, since the primary reason for the invasion was a response to 9/11, the occupation and subsequent improvement in humanitarian condition for many people was a side effect, not the original reason for being there. It may have become one of the reasons for staying (though I’m sure there were other foreign policy reasons for staying as well, possibly more important), but it doesn’t seem like a strong enough reason to continue to incur the human and financial costs of staying there. Sadly, for many Afgans. True. > [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > A grim thought crossed my mind - if Germany hadn’t invaded other countries leading up to World War II, and simply carried out the Holocaust within its own borders, and it somehow became widely publicized across the globe, would any countries have declared war against Germany to stop it? It pains me to think that nobody would have intervened, but I’m not sure who would have led the charge. None would have. All of the countries that eventually declared war on Germany were extremely reluctant to do so - WWI saw to that. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/152 "2021-08-16T21:42:47Z")
**Modnote** : Both of you, stop attacking other posters. Both of these posts are pushing it. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I’m sure another round of diversity and inclusion seminars will fix things right up. **This sure looks like a snide swipe at iiandyiiii.** > [@Chingon](#): > > The next time you whine about the level of discourse around here, remember this post of yours. **And this is a snide swipe at Sam.** > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What are you talking about? I was not attacking a poster. I was suggesting the military may have taken its eye off the ball. It is hard to read as you explain it. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record._ ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/153 "2021-08-16T21:44:34Z")
I honestly didn’t mean that to be personal, but if anyone took it that way I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/154 "2021-08-16T21:58:15Z")
Part of the problem is that the Afghan people themselves don’t care about women’s rights. Much has been said about the Taliban taking away from the rights of women, but many general Afghans feel the same way. Such as in this article: > **[An Afghan woman in Kabul: ‘Now I have to burn everything I achieved’](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved)** > > A university student tells of seeing all around her the ‘fearful faces of women and ugly faces of men who hate women’ > [@](#): > > We all wanted to get home, but we couldn’t use public transport. The drivers would not let us in their cars because they did not want to take responsibility for transporting a woman. It was even worse for the women from the dormitory, who are from outside Kabul and were scared and confused about where they should go. > > Meanwhile, **the men standing around were making fun of girls and women, laughing at our terror.** “Go and put on your _chadari_ [burqa],” one called out. “It is your last days of being out on the streets,” said another. “I will marry four of you in one day,” said a third. It’s one thing if the US was keeping the country stable by ensuring the Taliban weren’t in power, but it’s a much more difficult situation when the citizens themselves have many of the same morals as the Taliban. I’m not sure it really matters all that much if men on the street treat the women this way. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/155 "2021-08-16T23:00:16Z")
@QuickSilver @iiandyiiii It was about the poppies and drug the trade somehow … first off. I’m going by memory… Richard Secord had ties in the Vietnam drug trade, arms, and some kind of fraud… I was told Secord was a senior or high ranking official in Vietnam. (A friend of mine was a war correspondent in Vietnam Nam [journalism]. I was at his house in Mexico in 2000-2004. We drinking beer, talking politics and Viet Nam. We were still drinking when the sun rose.) He wrote several books that were published, he quit writing he became blind. I found an article that can explain so much better than I can. > **[Richard V. Secord](https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKsecordR.htm)** > > In August 1961, Richard V. Secord joined a special volunteer tactical organization in Florida. In March 1962 he was assigned as an adviser to the government in South Vietnam. Over the next few months Secord flew 200 combat missions. In January 1963... ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/156 "2021-08-16T23:21:10Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The US has to accept that, over the long term, we’re not in a position to determine which regime rules a country that’s 8000 miles from our shores. There are going to be regimes that we just don’t like very much, but we should still be open to negotiating with them to the extent possible. We negotiated with the Taliban when the Taliban had more leverage, and they knew it. Since the Roman days it’s been known that one of the best ways to set up a tin-pot regime that’s entirely dependent on a distant empire is to install a government that doesn’t align with local power structures and doesn’t have regional allies outside of your imperial stooges. What happens is that the utter lack of legitimacy forces the regime you install to stay dependent on you, and only ever has just barely enough power to keep the power structures that existed prior to imperial control and/or exist outside of imperial control from threatening their position. Then a vicious cycle continues where the regime you prop up gets steadily more dependent on you as it keeps using you to bail it out of its many crises, it’s legitimacy declines more and more and it becomes more and more insular. The US set up exactly that in Afghanistan and then acted surprised that the regime we set up was dependent on a distant empire. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/157 "2021-08-16T23:25:14Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > Later I think it came it was about an oil or gas pipeline. Remember, after 911, tht all the conspiracy theory types said the only reason we were in Afghanistan was to build a pipeline for Big Oil? Wonder when that’s going to get done? “Two weeks”? And, do they still believe that? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/158 "2021-08-16T23:26:20Z")
Haven’t read the whole thread, so maybe this has been addressed, but I’m curious what Pete Buttigieg has to say about all this. He served there, and before that worked for an international corporation that did business there, something he barely glossed over in his autobiography and hasn’t discussed much elsewhere, possibly because that information itself was classified. And Richard Engel from NBC News should get the Pulitzer for sticking around and reporting directly from Kabul. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/159 "2021-08-16T23:27:55Z")
I’ve heard that untapped veins of rare earth metals, useful in the computer industry, exist in Afghanistan, and that’s part of the reason “we” have had an interest there. The ones I’ve heard most references to are lithium and vanadium. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/160 "2021-08-16T23:35:10Z")
@Just_Asking_Questions here’s your answer. Note the Iranian connection. The pipeline was agreed between Iran and the [Soviet Union](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) in 1965.[[1]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajiqabul%E2%80%93Astara%E2%80%93Abadan_pipeline#cite_note-hiro-1) It was inaugurated in October 1970 in Astara by [Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Rez%C4%81_Sh%C4%81h_Pahlavi) and [Nikolai Podgorny](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Podgorny), [Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_of_the_Presidium_of_the_Supreme_Soviet).[[2]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajiqabul%E2%80%93Astara%E2%80%93Abadan_pipeline#cite_note-chubin-2) In 1971–1979, [Southern Caucasus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Caucasus) republics of the Soviet Union were supplied through this pipeline by natural gas from [Iran](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran).[[3]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajiqabul%E2%80%93Astara%E2%80%93Abadan_pipeline#cite_note-staar-3) After [Iranian Revolution](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution) Iranian supplies were cut off.[[4]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajiqabul%E2%80%93Astara%E2%80%93Abadan_pipeline#cite_note-wilson2-4) In 2006, Azerbaijan began a swap deal with Iran, providing gas through the Baku-Astara line to Iran; while Iran supplies [Nakhchivan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhchivan_Autonomous_Republic). On 11 November 2009, the [State Oil Company of Azerbaijan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Oil_Company_of_Azerbaijan) (SOCAR) and [National Iranian Gas Company](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Iranian_Gas_Company) signed a memorandum according to which Azerbaijani will supply starting from 2010 500 million cubic meters of natural gas per year.[[5]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajiqabul%E2%80%93Astara%E2%80%93Abadan_pipeline#cite_note-trend111109-5) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/161 "2021-08-16T23:39:52Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > here’s your answer. Note the Iranian connection. Nice cut-n-paste. And by nice, I mean useless. How, and why, were we invading Afghanistan in 2002, using 911 as an excuse, to build a pipeline that was already built in 1971? Think, McFly! ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/162 "2021-08-16T23:49:51Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > It’s one thing if the US was keeping the country stable by ensuring the Taliban weren’t in power, but it’s a much more difficult situation when the citizens themselves have many of the same morals as the Taliban. . Polls showed over and over that Taliban values are unpopular in Afghanistan. The Taliban are international drug lords. Saying that people in Afghanistan want the Taliban – in post after post showing no polling evidence – is similar to saying that people in high-crime U.S. neighborhoods favor the moral system of drug lords. Why isn’t this happening in Iraq? It has nothing to do with a difference in public opinion concerning whether women should be locked in the house. Instead, the answer is: Production of drugs illegal in export markets is a much smaller portion of Iraq’s economy. So the government military there can out-pay rebels. When the U.S. war against drugs failed, we failed Afghanistan. Whether it was a moral failure is a matter of verbiage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=9)