# Have we morally failed Afghanistan? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 14, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636 "2021-08-14T00:47:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2021, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/163 "2021-08-16T23:58:44Z")
I thought through all of history it’s been well known, that a land war in Afghanistan will always end in a disaster. Through the centuries hasn’t this always proven true? Several countries poured two decades worth of support, millions in resources, training troops, nation building, trying to bring a modernity no one really asked for. It cost those nations not just fortune but many lives. I fail to see how that’s a moral failure. Nothing changes that Afghanistan, has always been, an unruly collection of tribal factions each pressing the other for dominance. There is no single solution to such a situation, never was, never will be. Nothing changes that it is one of the most corrupt environments on the planet. Much of the monies that were being poured into troops, schools, really anything, never reached where it was intended. And after all that investment when it came time, the Afghan troops literally put up no fight, they just gave up. You can’t force people to fight for their freedom if they’re not willing. I don’t think it could be any clearer that the ONLY solution for Afghanistan MUST come from within Afghanistan. On their schedule, and not one minute before they are ready to sacrifice and find one. Look no one in the west, no country that lost soldiers or invested resources, is happy with this outcome. But that doesn’t mean continuing a doomed enterprise is a option to consider. I read an interview that said while everyone is displeased at the way it’s ending, the Afghans are all glad it’s ending. After twenty years of this many just want peace. If you lived through twenty years of on going 21st century warring, you might feel the same. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/164 "2021-08-17T00:04:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > That’s right. My informal estimate is that 84% of those criticizing the Biden Administration today for _'abandoning the Afghan women_ ’ and such are exploiting the Afghan women’s plight in a spectacularly bad-faith tactic. (They care about the plight of Afghan women and girls not at all.) > > The communist regime that used to run Afghanistan had a much better record on women’s rights than the religious regimes have. But back when the communists were running Afghanistan, we were supporting the religious rebels in their attempts to overthrow the communists. I vaguely remember “Gunga Dan” Rather being widely mocked for prancing around in ‘native garb.’ I don’t remember the term for the religious rebels being “Taliban,” though (can’t recall if there was any term in use other than Noble Rebels Against Soviet Domination). ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/165 "2021-08-17T00:07:39Z")
@Just_Asking_Questions keep reading. The Northern Lights Pipe Line, guess what that has to do with Biden? **Northern Lights** pipeline system has a total length of 7,377 kilometres (4,584 mi), of which around 2,500 kilometres (1,600 mi) is used to transport Russian gas to Europe. A [third parallel line](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazovets%E2%80%93Vyborg_gas_pipeline) will be added to this branch to supply the [Nord Stream](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream) pipeline. Guess what the Nordstream significance is? Here is the History of Nordstream Nordstream 2, Gazaprom, Ukraine, Russia, Germany, Biden, and more. Bookmark it it a long read. > **[Biden must freeze Putin’s pipeline and prevent this “bad deal for Europe”](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/biden-must-freeze-putins-pipeline-and-prevent-this-bad-deal-for-europe/)** > > By taking steps to block the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, US President Joe Biden has a real opportunity to build a new transatlantic security consensus while revitalizing the US-German relationship. The ending. - Problem is, the project is 90 percent complete, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel is set on getting it done before she leaves office this fall. So “ **the Biden administration judged that… killing it with US-imposed sanctions would fail and inflame relations with Germany, giving Putin a win,” Dan** says. - This was, in sum, a “calculated decision” by the Biden administration that an “agreement was far better than the pipeline being completed with no agreement,” **Dick** says. [FAST THINKING: Nord Stream 2 gets the green light - Atlantic Council](https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/content-series/fastthinking/fast-thinking-nord-stream-2-gets-the-green-light/) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/166 "2021-08-17T00:10:30Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I read an interview that said while everyone is displeased at the way it’s ending, the Afghans are all glad it’s ending. After twenty years of this many just want peace. Here’s an editorial, dated yesterday, from a newspaper I expect the Taliban will close, saying something else: [Message of Historical Revolution](http://outlookafghanistan.net/topics.php?post_id=29986) > [@](#): > > Since religious extremists know no moral or religious boundaries, they even target mourning proceedings and mosques. Hence, their anti-religious practices are against humans and humanity. > > To sum up, Islamic societies had better pay heed to the holy objectives of this revolution more than its tragic aspect. The heroic movement of Husain (A.S) and his selfless act for reviving religious values and ethical code are a unique lesson for all human societies that the history has ever recorded. But reducing the sacred goal of this revolution to mourning ceremonies will be a blow to Islamic societies. His valuable slogan “death with humanity is better than a life of humiliation” reveals his virtue and lofty soul. Maybe I misunderstand an article that could be a poor English translation of a Dari original. But it sounds to me to advocate civil war in event the Taliban don’t improve. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/167 "2021-08-17T00:19:49Z")
I don’t think that was _the_ reason we were in Afghanistan, but that pipeline was a real project being negotiated between the US and Taliban - that’s not conspiracy theory. It does lend credence to the idea that we weren’t in Afghanistan just because we wanted to turn it into some kind of liberal democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/168 "2021-08-17T00:22:55Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > I’m still trying to work out how 300,000 government troops, with armoured vehicles and at least some aircraft, appear to have not even bothered trying to to fight 50,000 Taliban, who have no tanks, some humvees and technicals, and no actual aircraft (that I’m aware of). > > “Hollow Army”. A lot of that force was “ghost troops”, either entirely fictitious to inflate the rolls and budgets, or not to be counted on if it was time to be home bringing in the crops or taking care of the family business. Whenever the US/allied advisors were not around to watch, training and the logistics chain got sloppy. Command appointments and promotion heavily reliant on connections and patronage. Those aircraft, armored vehicles, C3 networks? Reliant virtually entirely on external “contractors” to stay operational, and the contractors were among the first to GTFO. Reports are that the Afghan government was NOT paying the troops _or the suppliers_ in full or in time. And that the Taliban had already approached many military and civil leaders and said “be reasonable, brother, why should you die for some foreigner-lackey in Kabul? You don’t _have_ to join us but we can make it worth your while to walk away safely”. Fascinating–thanks. Today I heard a plausible (and related) point from (I think) Wesley Clark: that when the Trump Administration negotiated with the Taliban to withdraw all US troops by 1 May 2021, _that negotiation took place without ANY involvement by the Ghani government._ And everyone in Afghanistan knew that the Ghani government had been excluded, and that this meant that it was considered irrelevant by the USA—and that the USA would no longer support it with money or supplies. And this message was received loud and clear by all the “Afghan forces” the USA had trained/equipped, etc. So that when the Taliban started making their move, the “government forces” knew to throw in their lots with t **he people that the USA had clearly signaled were in charge:** the Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![Somethingwitty1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/somethingwitty1/32/8899_2.png) [@Somethingwitty1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Somethingwitty1)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/169 "2021-08-17T00:30:46Z")
We were in Afghanistan because Al Qaeda was based there with their (the Taliban) approval. Al-Qaeda flew airplanes into our cities. My moral qualms revolve around common Afghanis. The people of Afghanistan. People who go to work and feed their children. Love their parents and children, just as everyone else does. If the Taliban gathered their army in a stadium next Saturday to celebrate, I’d have no problem dropping a daisy cutter on them all. But would I flatten Kabul? No. As the days I have progressed, and I see desperate people at the airport, as I see very nervous interviews we Aghanis on the street. I am increasingly of the opinion that we promised something that we did not deliver. And have morally failed. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/170 "2021-08-17T01:33:11Z")
> [@Somethingwitty1](#): > > I am increasingly of the opinion that we promised something that we did not deliver. And have morally failed. One way or another this must be true. Either we made an empty promise we couldn’t keep or we made a promise we could have kept if we stayed the course but pulled out before being able to fulfill it. I think unless we were willing to radically rethink what we were trying to do in Afghanistan from the start it’s the former, but the question is when we failed Afghanistan, not whether we did. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/171 "2021-08-17T01:50:11Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > keep reading. > The Northern Lights Pipe Line, guess what that has to do with Biden? Either you’re confused or deliberately trying to obfuscate… Are you serious? Northern Lights pipleine doesn’t run ANYWHERE near Afghanistan. Pipleines serving Europe are a thousand miles north of Afghanistan. Look at a map! The 911 conspiracy was that Unocal wanted to build a pipeline for oil from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan. It had nothing to do with Russian gas. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/172 "2021-08-17T01:53:15Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t think that was _the_ reason we were in Afghanistan, but that pipeline was a real project being negotiated between the US and Taliban - that’s not conspiracy theory. My point to shh1313 was that this particular pipeline was being sold as “the” reason for invading Afghanistan. And I wanted to know whether in the last 20 years it had been built, considering how “certain” this was back in 2002. And he’s trying to sell me a pipeline that runs under the Baltic Sea. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/173 "2021-08-17T01:54:41Z")
Agreed - that pipeline had little relevance to what’s happening in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/174 "2021-08-17T02:15:55Z")
@asahi@Just_Asking_Questions give me a second it does tie in. I’ll show you. It in the 1st link. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/175 "2021-08-17T02:34:35Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I vaguely remember “Gunga Dan” Rather being widely mocked for prancing around in ‘native garb.’ I don’t remember the term for the religious rebels being “Taliban,” though (can’t recall if there was any term in use other than Noble Rebels Against Soviet Domination). Mujahideen was the most common term. I believe it translates as “the ones who struggle”. This was not the Taliban. That organization didn’t exist yet. But the communist regime in Afghanistan was secular, so a lot of the opposition groups were based on Islam. And the United States was supporting these groups. A lot of the people that we were supporting in the eighties would go on to become founders of the Taliban in the nineties, including Mohammad Omar. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/176 "2021-08-17T02:38:11Z")
> [@Somethingwitty1](#): > > We were in Afghanistan because Al Qaeda was based there with their (the Taliban) approval. Al-Qaeda flew airplanes into our cities. I would speculate that the current Taliban will have learned something from this and they will confine their crimes to the domestic scene and will not support international terrorists who might draw American attention back to them. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/177 "2021-08-17T02:49:32Z")
As they built out the ➡ **Northern Lights** pipeline system has a total length of 7,377 kilometres (4,584 mi), of which around 2,500 kilometres (1,600 mi) is used to transport Russian gas to Europe. Source Wikipedia Then➡️ The total amount of Russian gas transmitted through Belarus to Europe was 70.1 bcm in 2007.[[1]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Lights_(pipeline)#cite_note-cisyafimava-1) ## Ownership [Editing Northern Lights (pipeline) (section) - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northern_Lights_(pipeline)&action=edit§ion=3)) Then The Russian section of the pipeline system is a part of the unified gas system of Russia and is owned and operated by [Gazprom](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom). > **[Northern Lights (pipeline)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Lights_(pipeline))** > > Northern Lights (Russian: Сияние северa, Siyaniye Severa) is a natural gas pipeline system in Russia and Belarus. It is one of the main pipelines supplying north-western Russia and is an important transit route for Russian gas to Europe. > The Northern Lights pipeline system was built in the Soviet Union from the 1960s to 1980s. Construction of the Vuktyl–Ukhta–Gryazovets–Torzhok section started in 1967 and was completed in 1969. By 1974, the pipeline had been extended to Minsk. The second main ... “Gazaprom is a reliable supplier of gas to Russian and foreign consumers. The Company owns the world’s largest gas transmission system, the total length of which within the boundaries of Russia reaches 175.2 thousand kilometers. Gazprom sells more than half of its gas to Russian consumers and exports gas to over 30 countries within and beyond the former Soviet Union.” [https://www.gazprom.com/about/](https://www.gazprom.com/about/)] Now do you get it? ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/178 "2021-08-17T03:11:34Z")
Now thinking ahead.. According to GAZAPROM Here’s what they say their strategy is from their company website. “Due to Russia’s geographical location, the Company has the potential to become an energy “bridge” between the European and Asian markets by supplying its own natural gas and providing gas transit services to other producers. This predetermines the essence of the Company’s strategy in its key business areas.” [https://www.gazprom.com/about/strategy/](https://www.gazprom.com/about/strategy/) The **Belt and Road Initiative**** BR** This is huge! Texas is already making money. # Exclusive: Russian gas giant to relocate Houston office to recently renovated tower [https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2017/10/24/exclusive-russian-gas-giant-to-relocate-houston.html](https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/news/2017/10/24/exclusive-russian-gas-giant-to-relocate-houston.html) ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/179 "2021-08-17T03:27:22Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Either we made an empty promise we couldn’t keep or we made a promise we could have kept if we stayed the course but pulled out before being able to fulfill it. > > I think unless we were willing to radically rethink what we were trying to do in Afghanistan from the start it’s the former, but the question is when we failed Afghanistan, not whether we did. I am inclined to agree. I also think the Coalition were screwed no matter what. If they said “Wow, this place is a mess, we’re going to stay here indefinitely and run this place as an exclave so the people in it can enjoy their basic human rights and education”, people would scream about the evils of colonialism/imperialism; if they Coalition had said “Job done, we got the people we needed to get, we’re off now, bye!” then this whole thing would have happened a decade ago, but with louder cries of “How can we abandon them? We’ve destroyed their country and now we’re just up and _leaving_???” The only saving grace from this is that there’s been 20 years of effort to get Afghanistan to function as a ‘modern’ country and the fact it has utterly failed means the brass can at least say “We genuinely tried to make this work for them”. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/180 "2021-08-17T03:28:41Z")
Let’s bring up IRAN in 2017 Gazaprom was in talks it was discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/181 "2021-08-17T03:44:11Z")
> [@shh1313](#): > > Now do you get it? Yes, I totally see how a gaz pipeline made in the 70s through Northerm Europe, supplying Russian gas to Germany, connects politically to an oil pipleline entirely within Afghanistan and Pakistan, and that the desire to have such a pipeline caused the US to use 911 (probably an inside job) as a pretext to invade Afghanistan to build said pipeline, which 20 years later hasn’t even been started. How could anyone not see that? ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636/182 "2021-08-17T03:47:02Z")
It built. It name is Northern Lights Pipeline. Read the Northern Lights Pipeline wikipedia article. Then read The Atlantic [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/have-we-morally-failed-afghanistan/948636.md?page=10)