…as I said:
And I think its great that they did that because they love their children too. To say nothing of the husbands, wives, brothers & sisters, children… etc.
Where did you get the impression that I thought otherwise?
The people of Afghanistan “rode the gravy train?” Really?
Don’t you also think that they love their children too? To say nothing of the husbands, wives, brothers & sisters, children… etc
Did the US morally fail Afghanistan?
Absolutely they do. And they decided that running into the arms of fellow Afghans (Taliban) was the way to save those lives. We can be disappointed this happened, but we can’t act surprised.
But nobody expected it would end like that, with a beaten whimper from America.
After 20 years of saying how much you wanted to create a better country, nobody expected you to leave with absolutely zero concern for what happened next. And this was 100% clear more than a month ago.
Après moi, le déluge!
This is not down to Biden either. It’s down to the generals in the Pentagon.
The US and western coalition allies strategically failed Afghanistan.
…many of them actually seem to be running in the opposite direction, actually. The way you have framed it seems odd. When France fell in World War 2, did the French run into the arms of the Nazis?
…what about morally? Yes or no?
On balance, no. On balance the Afghan government and military morally failed their own countrymen and to some extent the western coalition that spent 20 years trying to improve the lives of average Afghans.
When you do not commit to murdering the bulk of the population in order to achieve victory, you have to accept failure.
You’re not making any sense. There were certainly some who were friendly towards the Nazis, but the bulk of the french public wasn’t. The Taliban ARE Afghans! It’s their country and their people through various tribal alliances.
You’re right that Afghanistan the society hasn’t necessarily ran into the Taliban embrace, as the scenes at the airport and reports of protests show. But Afghanistan the state, the people in that society tasked most directly with confronting the Taliban, did for the most part.
The French army was fighting outside Dunkirk to give their comrades and British Allies time to get out. The Afghan army was taking bribes to take off their uniforms and go home.
It’s exactly that kind of arrogance that lost you the war, not treating people like human beings.
…I couldn’t disagree with you more. The Afghan military had absolutely no means to support itself. Many (if not most) had not even been paid for months. Without support from American troops and logistics from contractors, what exactly did you expect them to do?
On balance, the US government and the military morally failed the people of Afghanistan. They promised much. And as we can see delivered exactly jack and shit.
You know exactly what I mean. They were fighting the Taliban, alongside their allies, the Americans. Just like the French were fighting the Nazis. Then the Americans just left. That was a moral failure by the Americans and left those that remained with zero options.
Oh give me a break. An estimated 241,000 people have died in the warzone since 2001. Over 70,000 were civilians. They died in your war, many died defending your troops, others died at your countries hands. This isn’t a moral victory for you. Not by a long shot.
I was being facetious. It was an un-winnable war from the start and the US and allies should have faced that reality much sooner than they did. In waiting 20 years, they made things worse to some extent. But sunk cost is a thing and at some point you have to stop throwing good money after bad.
I expected them to fight for their own interests, like the Taliban fought for their own. For 20 years the Afghan government and army were on the Western Alliance payroll. They had the backing and the training and the equipment from the most advanced militaries and experts in the world. They also had at least a 3:1 advantage in numbers over the Taiban forces. And all it took was a few months of not getting a paycheck for the Afghan military to collapse. It says one thing and one thing only: When you build an army whose only motivation is the paycheck then you do not have an army, you have a mercenary force for hire.
…LOL.
This is a joke, right? You aren’t being serious?
I mean…how exactly do you expect them and their families to eat?
Expecting your boss to actually pay you isn’t some mercenary act. And probably every standing army in the world would collapse if you stopped paying them for a few weeks, let alone a few months.
Were you joking, or are you being serious?
Fair enough. We did morally fail Afghanistan, but not by leaving - by staying for so long while accomplishing nothing. Leaving was the moral thing to do, for both countries. Staying was not improving anything for anyone, except those who got paid. It wasn’t advancing women’s rights one iota - it was only putting off a reckoning on these rights and many others; a reckoning that outsiders would never be able to undergo for them.
A massive moral failure. But at least we’re no longer piling on money and lives spent for nothing on top of that failure.
I expect them to make the necessary sacrifices to fight for their families and values and benefits they enjoyed while being aided by the west. They were ostensibly fighting for their own country’s future in what is a civil war. Turns out, they were fighting for a paycheck. That they chose not to do everything they could with significant advantages at their disposal tells us that they are happy with returning to how things were 20 years ago and for hundreds of years before that.
And that’s okay if that is what they really want. I just don’t want to hear about moral failure of the US without hearing something about the moral failure of Afghan military to defend its own people from an oppressive theocracy.
Perhaps they know their own interests better than you do?
Once they realised you care f-all for them, and never did…
Once they stopped trusting you, and lost all respect for you…
Once they realised you were a bunch of losers…
…they made a calculated decision as to what was in their best interests.
They absolutely know their own interests better than the West did.
They made their choice long before the pull-out became a reality.
This was always how it was going to end.
It would have been a surprise if there was a happy ending.
I see that you haven’t disputed that they regard Americans as arrogant and untrustworthy cowards.
And yet you still say that America didn’t morally fail? 
…what exactly do you think they have been doing for the last 20 years? How many have died in the name of your war?
Nonsense. Do you think American soldiers weren’t getting paid? Were they just fighting for paychecks? Would they be getting on planes to fight in Afghanistan if they hadn’t been paid in months? Is that the way you think the armed services work?
But this wasn’t the only thing going on. This was a collapse on multiple fronts. They weren’t fighting for a paycheck. They were fighting for their families, they were fighting for the Coalition, then the Coalition abandoned them. They had two options: surrender or pointlessly die in a war they had no way of winning. It would have been foolish to take the latter option.
Significant advantages?
Is this another joke?
Many hadn’t been paid for months. There was no support infrastructure available to them once the Coalition pulled out. No command and control. They had nothing. It was surrender or die.
Well too bad. Because the moral failure of the US is the story. And we aren’t going to ignore it just because it makes some people feel uncomfortable. Putting all the blame on the Afghan military is the moral failure here. This isn’t on them.